The Disappearance of bands in popular music.

[RayDunzl]

The economics/politics/logistics of production likely affected the music we get to hear for as long as music has existed.

Zappa's take on "the decline of the music business", from 37 years ago.

 

[Multicore]

Music, like everything else evolves. I say embrace this evolution and diversity. Why not?

As it happens I've been working on an essay to answer that but it's not ready yet, kinda mess actually, dunno if I can rescue it. And probably too political for ASR.

Basically Enrico Monacelli and Mark Fisher asked the right question and just got confused trying to answer it

 

[Multicore]

Zappa's take on "the decline of the music business", from 37 years ago.

Zappa is right. And the trajectory of industrial marketing and productive competence and centralized power has only increased since.

 

[Timcognito]

Mr Zappa was prophetic fellow almost 60 years ago in1965 and lyrics are true to this day. The first album I purchased but probably '67 because of this song.

 

[Multicore]

Yes, interesting. The economics/politics/logistics of production likely affected the music we get to hear for as long as music has existed.

I don't go that far because in much of humans existence music was not objectified into commercial products. I believe it has been common for music to simply be part of other social activities.

 

[Axo1989]

I don't go that far because in much of humans existence music was not objectified into commercial products. I believe it has been common for music to simply be part of other social activities.

Yes, commodification certainly came much later (I'm thinking of modern pop bangers and crooners being somewhat fungible industrial products). As did recording, modern re-production and mass production (obviously). Economics/politics/logistics affecting the music we get to make and hear is long-standing.

Edit: chart music is usually pretty awful to my ears, but there's an embarrassment of choice at the margins ... I think it beats listening to endless folk music in centuries past, otoh I could go for some some fireside drumming etc

 

[DMill]

This isn’t the first time the musicians played with a front man. Miles Davis had some pretty good guys. He didn’t name those albums from a band name like “Smell the Glove”. Unless you have a couple (few) song writing partners, you aren’t the Beatles.

 

[Multicore]

Edit: chart music is usually pretty awful to my ears, but there's an embarrassment of choice at the margins ... I think it beats listening to endless folk music in centuries past, otoh I could go for some some fireside drumming etc

For sure we are spoiled for choice, gigantically so, and I don't want to say that's a bad thing. I'm also not proposing we roll back the clock. I just wonder if we cannot regain some agency, assert a different kind of freedom beyond consumer choice, by prioritizing music's function in social practice as opposed to as a product. This might mean for example avoiding making recording more often. Maybe also trying to reduce the objectifying distance between audiences and performers (reduce the scale). And become more casual, less sophisticated in our critical discourse, e.g. did we have a good time, did it serve the purpose and leave it there instead of the endless blather we use for concerts and recordings. Reduce the seriousness and the consequences of failure. Music can, I believe, be novel, interesting, engaging, moving and at the same time as ad hoc and disposable while maintaining its essential human value. Music does not need to be a document, like a novel or a text book, that must meet the standards set by its antecedents.

 

[Multicore]

This isn’t the first time the musicians played with a front man. Miles Davis had some pretty good guys. He didn’t name those albums from a band name like “Smell the Glove”. Unless you have a couple (few) song writing partners, you aren’t the Beatles.

Yesterday I was elsewhere arguing that Maynard Ferguson is to jazz trumpet as EVH is to rock guitar. Go find the video on youtube where he plays with Stan Kenton on the Ed Sullivan show in 1950. It's wild but not unprecedented. Swing bands used very entertaining soloists and stage gimmicks. Sun Ra kept that tradition going until beyond his move back to the farther planets, i.e. until today.

 

[Cbdb2]

A solo performer with technology is not creatively slowed down by interactions, cooperation, and collaboration. Prince is famous for bringing a demo recording he did solo and was signed

Interaction and collaboration makes better music. Ild rather have a person who's played the bass (guitar, drums etc) all there lives write and play the bass line than some singer who plays a 4 note bass line that needs autotune and quantization and copies and pastes it into the song. Drum machines, yea best way to f up a groove. And that Prince demo never got released. Its like saying its better to get the plumber to build the entire house.

 

[Axo1989]

For sure we are spoiled for choice, gigantically so, and I don't want to say that's a bad thing. I'm also not proposing we roll back the clock. I just wonder if we cannot regain some agency, assert a different kind of freedom beyond consumer choice, by prioritizing music's function in social practice as opposed to as a product. This might mean for example avoiding making recording more often. Maybe also trying to reduce the objectifying distance between audiences and performers (reduce the scale). And become more casual, less sophisticated in our critical discourse, e.g. did we have a good time, did it serve the purpose and leave it there instead of the endless blather we use for concerts and recordings. Reduce the seriousness and the consequences of failure. Music can, I believe, be novel, interesting, engaging, moving and at the same time as ad hoc and disposable while maintaining its essential human value. Music does not need to be a document, like a novel or a text book, that must meet the standards set by its antecedents.

I didn't imagine you were disparaging the fact we have much to choose from, and I mostly agree with your commentary there.

Especially the freedom of the artist/group to experiment. I don't dislike detailed commentary, or contextualising a piece within a body or history of work, or taking music/art seriously. But all that shouldn't be a straitjacket. I love it when artists go off-script (in terms of creative narratives generated by audience/critic) and some of my favourite stuff is that weird album/EP that nobody likes (until they do).

 

[Cbdb2]

DJs did a lot of damage. I remember 25 years ago going downtown to see some music, walked past a large popular concert hall and there was a Dj playing (other peoples music) and they wanted $40 dollars for the show. We walked a few blocks more and the blues bar had 3 great bands playing that nigh and it cost 15 dollars. We went in. How long do you think those bands stayed together?
One big thing thats doing damage now is the buying up of classic rock catalogs from the biggest artist of 30 years ago. Niel Young, Bob Dillon, etc. etc. all in the several $100M. Sony just offered Pink Floyd $500M. Billions of dollars that used to go into artist development. Many of the biggest band of old didnt sell any records till there 2nd or 3rd album and the record company would still support them. Now if your first single isn't a hit your back in your basement,

 

[Sal1950]

pop music is not guitar/rock based anymore, that's the whole secret, I saved you 8 minutes of name dropping his favorite bands

No, it's singer based. With a singer that may or may not be able to carry a tune. With songs (lyrics) written by God Knows Who, with music composed by God Knows who, or stolen from God knows who, music played by God knows who, much of it of AI origin.
Rick pretty much nailed it in his recent The Real Reason Why Music Is Getting Worse

Otoh, sometimes collaboration results in art that no single solo artist would have come up with. That is what is lost when very nearly everything is from solo artists.

Or simply a solo singer with great legs and a whole collaboration of AI machines.
Similar to the Boy Bands, find a bunch of cute guys with a great ass, teach them to dance and let a million others put together the stage routine.

Drum machines, all kinds of synths, and now, for film scoring, synthetic orchestras reduce highly skilled labor costs. I was listening to the latest Dune soundtrack, and the string parts are a synthetic orchestra section. AI composition is here: "make a composition trained on these skilled works by others, with this length." It should be possible to give it a timeline for dynamics and feeling linked to picture, the movie already shot and edited.

That's a big part of exactly whats wrong with it. In the video linked above, just jump to the 1:40 and listen to the machine drum part vs the John Bonham played, big difference.

Interaction and collaboration makes better music. Ild rather have a person who's played the bass (guitar, drums etc) all there lives write and play the bass line than some singer who plays a 4 note bass line that needs autotune and quantization and copies and pastes it into the song. Drum machines, yea best way to f up a groove. And that Prince demo never got released. Its like saying its better to get the plumber to build the entire house.

Amen

 

[Multicore]

I didn't imagine you were disparaging the fact we have much to choose from, and I mostly agree with your commentary there.

Especially the freedom of the artist/group to experiment. I don't dislike detailed commentary, or contextualising a piece within a body or history of work, or taking music/art seriously. But all that shouldn't be a straitjacket. I love it when artists go off-script (in terms of creative narratives generated by audience/critic) and some of my favourite stuff is that weird album/EP that nobody likes (until they do).

Agree.

Process vs product.

For a year or two I've been obsessing over this distinction. Dunno if I'll ever be able to clearly say what it means to me. But I think we're in a situation culturally when we have more than enough of one and could do with a bit more of the other. In historical terms this is recent.

 

[JiiPee]

No, it's singer based. With a singer that may or may not be able to carry a tune. With songs (lyrics) written by God Knows Who, with music composed by God Knows who, or stolen from God knows who, music played by God knows who, much of it of AI origin.
Rick pretty much nailed it in his recent The Real Reason Why Music Is Getting Worse

What this world needs is a band called "The God Knows Who" playing songs with lyrics written by God Knows Who, and composed by God Knows Who.

The last missing piece of Rock band trilogy: Guess Who - Who - God Knows Who.

 

[Sal1950]

What this world needs is a band called "The God Knows Who" playing songs with lyrics written by God Knows Who, and composed by God Knows Who.

The last missing piece of Rock band trilogy: Guess Who - Who - God Knows Who.

ROTF

 

[Blumlein 88]

Then there are the Who Knows God band, with lyrics written by those Who Know God. Of course that might be a Christian rock band. Ouch?

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

There were plenty of bands before that transition. What you're seeing there is the effects of mass marketing of recordings taking over in popular music.

Interestingly, one of the motives for the transition to singers as the front of stage stars of bands was the Musicians Union strike of 1942-44.

Of course there were bands, but given the focus on popular ones, I just did a very little looking. Nothing comprehensive enough for certainty of course. You are correct that what tops the charts is strongly influenced by marketing, and marketing got a lot more intense over time.

I am definitely going to do some reading on that strike. I did a little, but given war, such a strike seems like it would have some interesting dynamics involved under the surface.

 

[Chr1]

Surely Elvis, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin and Metalica all had great marketing too?
Just minus the internet.
Possibly Metalica aside, that's why they were the chart-topping pop music of the time.

 

[goat76]

Surely Elvis, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin and Metalica all had great marketing too?

Just minus the internet .

In the world of today's digital streaming market; precision marketing, manipulation of streams, “weighted” search motors, and “first-page” spotlights make it easy to steer the mass market in a way that maximizes the revenue for a small group of people who are in control of the tools.

Things like that has always been going on, it’s just more effective tools for it in this time and age.