The diminishing returns and poor price to performance of $1000 gear

[yuki900]

I've been thinking this for ages but honestly hate how people oversell or hype stuff in this area. The Andro, IE800, SE846, HD800 and more all have flaws that the HD650/ER4PT don't have both are $300+ headphones. The ER4PT can reach 17k yet every chart shows the 846 rolling off sooner than 10KHz??. Sure there are some that deserve it price tag like Stax headphones.

The most overhyped though is the Campfire andromeda, Costs $1100 yet has the tuning of a coloured $199 IEM with very bad output ohm issues.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Iems all have similar sound signature... uneven, muffled, boosted and boomy sounding bass, and nasally sounding midrange.

 

[frogmeat69]

Iems all have similar sound signature... uneven, muffled, boosted and boomy sounding bass, and nasally sounding midrange.

Audeze iSine 20 are pretty good, especially with the cipher cable.

 

[wadec22]

Iems all have similar sound signature... uneven, muffled, boosted and boomy sounding bass, and nasally sounding midrange.

i really enjoy the mee pinnacle p1. maybe uneven up top, but i wouldn't use any of those other adjectives to describe it. I am also admittedly not an iem buff. i have tried an obscene number of headphones but pretty limited in regard to iem.

 

[Erik]

Audeze iSine 20 are pretty good

Are they?

 

[wadec22]

Are they?

i thought most folks found iems incredibly hard to measure, so most measurements have to not only be taken with a grain of salt but only evaluated by a trusted source. again, fairly noobish with iem, so more than open to being educated.

 

[yuki900]

i thought most folks found iems incredibly hard to measure, so most measurements have to not only be taken with a grain of salt but only evaluated by a trusted source. again, fairly noobish with iem, so more than open to being educated.

Everyone ear canal is different so it's a 5 answer question. No idea why his example is the Isine 20 when with low THD and EQ even the Isine 10 can rival the killobuck stuff same with a mildly EQ'd ER4SR. So many IEM measuring + reviews ignore that issue, Like someone reviewing the ER4 but never once give any info wither they got good fit.

The way the canal shaped can cause variation on how bass/mids/treble is perceived.

 

[JJB70]

Iems all have similar sound signature... uneven, muffled, boosted and boomy sounding bass, and nasally sounding midrange.

I don't think that applies to the Etymotic ER4 family, which are tuned for a neutral response and are not bass boosted. Although many criticise them for being boring (I love the ER4SR) so maybe the deep V tuning of many IEMs is just providing what most of the market wants.

 

[digicidal]

I don't think that applies to the Etymotic ER4 family, which are tuned for a neutral response and are not bass boosted. Although many criticise them for being boring (I love the ER4SR) so maybe the deep V tuning of many IEMs is just providing what most of the market wants.

I just always called it the BOSE target curve... "deep V" sounds better - though a little bit naughty.

 

[yuki900]

I don't think that applies to the Etymotic ER4 family, which are tuned for a neutral response and are not bass boosted. Although many criticise them for being boring (I love the ER4SR) so maybe the deep V tuning of many IEMs is just providing what most of the market wants.

The V tuning is just a happy compromise since there catering to a group who no past experience on what good or reference. When i was on Reddit/head fi quite a few hated ER4/Grado unfairly because they don't have boosted bass.

Even the CFA house sound takes a hit on clarity because of dip at the upper mids and boosted bass(6 - 8db). I can hear more details that would be masked on more coloured gear on my ER4SR's.

 

[THW]

bigger price number better didn’t you know

/s

 

[Erik]

I don't think that applies to the Etymotic ER4 family, which are tuned for a neutral response and are not bass boosted.

When i was on Reddit/head fi quite a few hated ER4/Grado unfairly because they don't have boosted bass.

Linear bass response in headphones is not a "neutral response". You need to compensate the lack of room gain and whole-body vibrations.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../etymotic-versus-audiophila.7958/#post-193301
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/acoustic-basis-harman-listener-target-curve

 

[solderdude]

There is a difference between VFM, diminishing returns and absolute quality.
There is also a difference between tonal accuracy and 'technicalities'.
There is also a difference in how headphones improve with EQ.

Some folks appreciate certain improvements and are willing to sacrifice other aspects that are less important/audible to them but could be more important for others.

When I started in this hobby I found some real 'gems' in low priced headphones.
Had a HD650 for reference all this time.
Having heard and measured more and more headphones I learned to appreciate certain aspects more.
This changed my views over the years though experience.
When I compare cheaper (but high VFM) headphones directly to flagships I can hear differences more clearly then before I heard (and EQ'ed) the more expensive headphones. When I just started out I also compared cheap (but good) with expensive stuff in hifi stores (bringing the cheap stuff along with me) and in those days I did not find any more 'value' in the expensive stuff.
Experience brought me a different view and now appreciate some expensive HP's more than other good stuff.
Not all expensive stuff get's my appreciation for sure.

I would say there a few are 'pretty good' sounding headphones (to me) in the < $100 range.
There are also good to very good sounding headphones in the $100 - $400 range.
Above $ 400,- there are some pretty good to amazing sounding headphones that are clearly better in many aspects than cheaper ones.

This doesn't mean there isn't total crap in all of these price ranges.
Relatively there is more crap in the low budget range than in the mid tier and even less in the higher end.

That said I heard some (expensive as well) headphones that did sound crap to me but others seem to love it.

There is no universal truth here, just personal favorites and the maximum one likes to spend.
Where each persons diminishing returns will be also is a personal thing.

My personal limit is around $ 1000.- for headphones but have heard stuff that I like as well many times higher in price.
Not going to buy it anyway regardless if I can afford it.

 

[JJB70]

Diminishing returns tends to kick in pretty quickly in audio gear. Especially now when the source for most people isn't even an audio component anymore and audibly transparent DACs cost peanuts and when many on-board DAC are audibly transparent. Amplifiers do not have to cost much to achieve transparency, depending on the power requirements. Indeed most built in DACs and amplifiers of active digital speakers pass without comment because they just work. Speakers and headphones are the one part of the audible chain which haven't been commoditised IMO. That said, if you want premium build quality, materials and industrial design then it does come with a cost.
For headphones I think that the law of diminishing returns is kicking in by £100,by £200-300 I think the curve is really steep. That's not to say that more expensive models don't offer anything, they should be better built and offer more esoteric features and SQ should be better. But if looking only at SQ I think that you are already into marginal gains once you go past models like the HD650.

 

[Tks]

Lol Campfire. They're like Rolex, if Rolex could only sell submariners from the 60's, and didn't have any certifications like COSC or such.

They chose to sell to audiophools (with their silly cables, which actually sucked yet still cost quite a bit, of which are only now getting refreshes as of late), and when measurement folks got ahold of their IEM's every single one of them have been failures in one form or another on the market since the Andromedas. The only reason the Andromeda had staying power, is that was a time where not much measuring was going on, so the prestige had settled-in with their regular repeat customers who also enjoy showing off their halo product on various social media and such, and as such they've tried not messing with that forumla too much.

The only reason the Andromeda isn't $300, is due to the aluminum casing (which in my opinion actually sucked as much as the idiotic design choice for Audeze LCD-line of headbands), the US-based operation, and the decent warranty.

They should try throwing some money at R&D + QC'ing for driver consistency, and driver channel matching tbh. I've heard 3 pairs, each once had one of these "flaws" in some form or another.

It's laughable it took them this long to attempt to mitigate the issue with the annodization chipping for example (idiotic highly angular/sharp corners of the IEM), and their pathetic nozzle length basically requiring foam tips be used if you want proper deep insertion that doesn't have them sliding out of your ear.

I could go on with various cable complaints, questionable sensitivity levels, and more.. (at $1000 for an IEM, yes I will be grilling everything). Instead I saved myself the headache, and got something I don't have concerns with, know performs better, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Only problem for future folks.. They discontinued them (as is usually the case with half decent products).

Moondrop Kanas Pro. I'm still waiting to see anything that has consistent measurements/more comfortable/ergonomic/better looking, at the price. (Sadly replaced by the worse designed Moondrop KXXS but still a very good IEM compared to others generally speaking).

 

[Hipper]

I find the HD800 far superior to the HD650 - better controlled bass (less of it but I prefer that), much more high end detail, and far more comfortable as they have larger ear pieces that cover my pinnae.

I've had the HD800 six years and whilst three times the price I'm much happier with them.

I agree that expensive doesn't necessarily mean better - you can only make your own judgements.

 

[wadec22]

I find the HD800 far superior to the HD650 - better controlled bass (less of it but I prefer that), much more high end detail, and far more comfortable as they have larger ear pieces that cover my pinnae.

I've had the HD800 six years and whilst three times the price I'm much happier with them.

I agree that expensive doesn't necessarily mean better - you can only make your own judgements.

your main point is the most important one, finding something that works for you and sticking with it. regardless of what others think of it or you read about it.

i myself find the HD800 to be incredibly overrated. I've owned it twice. I think it is absurd that a halo product like that requires significant modification and EQ to not cause so much treble fatigue. People mod them and buy tube amps for them just to try to tame a treble peak. When you do get them in-line to where they are not fatiguing, they lose most their magic. they still have a brilliant sound stage but after you do a SDR mod and EQ them, their imaging is no more than slightly above average. i find them more comfortable than the 6XX line since the clamping is more distributed, but I still do not like where the bottom of the ear cups grab below my ear and top of my bottom jaw.

 

[Cortes]

Senheisser HD are consistently good. I've read there are some black sheep, but in general you pay more, you get more.
I'd never buy their amps, which have insane prices, but as for HD they are a safe bet.

 

[wadec22]

Moondrop Kanas Pro. I'm still waiting to see anything that has consistent measurements/more comfortable/ergonomic/better looking, at the price. (Sadly replaced by the worse designed Moondrop KXXS but still a very good IEM compared to others generally speaking).

i'm intrigued. I don't get to use my iems much. if I find a pair of these kanas pro - how big a step up from my pinnacle p1's are they?

 

[wadec22]

There is a difference between VFM, diminishing returns and absolute quality.
There is also a difference between tonal accuracy and 'technicalities'.
There is also a difference in how headphones improve with EQ.

Some folks appreciate certain improvements and are willing to sacrifice other aspects that are less important/audible to them but could be more important for others.

When I started in this hobby I found some real 'gems' in low priced headphones.
Had a HD650 for reference all this time.
Having heard and measured more and more headphones I learned to appreciate certain aspects more.
This changed my views over the years though experience.
When I compare cheaper (but high VFM) headphones directly to flagships I can hear differences more clearly then before I heard (and EQ'ed) the more expensive headphones. When I just started out I also compared cheap (but good) with expensive stuff in hifi stores (bringing the cheap stuff along with me) and in those days I did not find any more 'value' in the expensive stuff.
Experience brought me a different view and now appreciate some expensive HP's more than other good stuff.
Not all expensive stuff get's my appreciation for sure.

I would say there a few are 'pretty good' sounding headphones (to me) in the < $100 range.
There are also good to very good sounding headphones in the $100 - $400 range.
Above $ 400,- there are some pretty good to amazing sounding headphones that are clearly better in many aspects than cheaper ones.

This doesn't mean there isn't total crap in all of these price ranges.
Relatively there is more crap in the low budget range than in the mid tier and even less in the higher end.

That said I heard some (expensive as well) headphones that did sound crap to me but others seem to love it.

There is no universal truth here, just personal favorites and the maximum one likes to spend.
Where each persons diminishing returns will be also is a personal thing.

My personal limit is around $ 1000.- for headphones but have heard stuff that I like as well many times higher in price.
Not going to buy it anyway regardless if I can afford it.

lot of good stuff here. @solderdude knows his stuff. i agree with a lot of it with a few paramaters slightly tweaked for myself.

i think you can get a great DAC/amp for around 300.00 and it could meet most the technicalities to be "end game"
I also think you can get great headphones in the $50-$100 range knowing you are making a couple sacrifices.
If you know what you do and don't like, I also think you can find a headphone that can meet most end game attributes for around $200-$400 depending on what your after.

IMHO when you spend north of $500 you just have to know you are paying for either R&D, hand-crafted or if not properly researched - snake oil.