The demise of Amazon Classical Music Forum: music terrorists?

[nnamelet]

I am a lifelong lover of classical music and enjoyed discussions of this subject with other buffs online. Then something shocking happened a few years ago. The now-defunct Amazon Classical Music Forum was taken over by a small group of avantegardists. They knew the classical repertory but had their own eclectic discussions of music, especially favoring contemporary compositions, i.e. the genre of intellectually oriented music experimentation following Schoenberg's 12-tone (atonal) music in the early 20th Century. They so dominated the threads that they soon chilled out older and newer participants. If anyone brought in themes not favored by the group - e.g. criticism of contemporary compositions - they could be treated to putdowns.

I'm an audience advocate and sometime writer on classical music. Knowing what happened to the once strong interest in classical music in the US because of loss of new music intended for audiences (rather than academic composers mostly composing for each other) I engaged in debate with the group. Finally (apparently well familiar with Amazon's guidelines and safeguards) they apparently got me excluded from communication with this site. I could hardly believe it. I call that group music terrorists rather than music lovers. Logically enough, Amazon ultimately found that site so poorly visited that they shut it down.

It closed a once lively medium for exchange of knowledge about and love of classical music. In browsing Google about the fate of Amazon classical I see one of the former gang (kenoc) is on a subsequent site, "Talk classical" or similar title. Unless they are managing it themselves, they may succeed in closing that site as well.

 

[anmpr1]

...something shocking happened a few years ago. The now-defunct Amazon Classical Music Forum was taken over by a small group... they so dominated the threads that they soon chilled out older and newer participants. If anyone brought in themes not favored by the group - e.g. criticism of contemporary compositions - they could be treated to putdowns. In browsing Google about the fate of Amazon classical I see one of the former gang (kenoc) is on a subsequent site, "Talk classical" or similar title. Unless they are managing it themselves, they may succeed in closing that site as well.

I found discussion to be generally more open in the days of Usenet. A lot of that was 'hard nosed' however you didn't have to worry about violating an arbitrary TOS. Of course moderated groups were more focused, but that is what you wanted, and expected.

Back then traffic was limited. Usually people accessing the service were paying a lot for it, and tended to be technically savvy. Because of bandwidth limitations there was generally less irrelevant traffic. The big joke (although it was pretty true) was that AOL killed Usenet once the service offered open access.

Usenet was text based, but unfortunately became a repository for pornography and other questionable file distribution; so there were legal problems. That, plus the advent of GUI based Web content, resulted in its decline. Everything declines after a period, to be replaced by something new.

The rule today is that anything associated with Google, Facebook, YT, or other large content aggregators, is going to be subject to harsh censorship and/or other types of content manipulation. In fact, many 'consumer hobbyist' sites have deactivated all commenting. However it is, you can be sure that the mob will always overpower discussion. It's the nature of groupthink. Today's running joke is not about 'Eternal September', but rather "If you don't like it, build your own Internet!"

The key word for open discussion going forward is probably Samizdat. Ironically, that is open discussion that has to be hidden. LOL

 

[Daverz]

I never spent more than a few minutes on that Amazon forum. It wasn't very interesting. I'm over on GMG these days: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php

Warning: the people there are open-minded about contemporary music, and most don't make the mistake of conflating all contemporary music with 12-tone music. Serial techniques have not been popular with contemporary composers for many decades now. There is much accessible contemporary music for those that will listen with open ears. It's time to move on and get over the musical culture wars of the 1960s.

 

[julian_hughes]

...

I'm an audience advocate and sometime writer on classical music. Knowing what happened to the once strong interest in classical music in the US because of loss of new music intended for audiences (rather than academic composers mostly composing for each other)...

They disdained the audiences and the audiences felt the same way about them. Surprise. The same has happened worldwide, not just in the US. Sales of classical music recordings plummeted, labels big & small died, orchestras now rely on state subsidy, halls closed, music teaching in schools is in a sorry state. And when you read accounts of the era before this happened, even novels, diaries or newspapers, not music review specialists, you realise that the audiences were generally incredibly well informed and highly knowledgeable, so it's not that people were incapable of understanding the new music, it's just that very few people ever liked it!

One other tragedy of the new movement is that truly brilliant composers were sidelined or even completely ignored for many decades. The elite turned their noses up at Frank Bridge, Arthur Bliss, Arthur Butterworth, Malcolm Arnold, Ernest Moeran, Bantock, Holbrooke etc & that's just a small selection of people from the UK!

In my mind I carry the phrase "Music for Musicologists" as a catch-all for the stuff composed by people who are so clever that they thought the audience could go hang, and now they got their wish as almost nobody buys their output or pays to attend its performance. It's just a shame they damaged everyone else too.

 

[Pretorious]

I frequented Talk Classical very briefly because I couldn’t stand ’debating’ with the ultra-modernists on there, so it is interesting to me that you mention some of that Amazon clique had gone there. It seemed every thread about even pre-20th century works brought along a crew of them to put down the merits of whatever was being discussed. I gave up.

I do find myself perusing and contributing on good-music-guide.com now and it’s a much more amiable and tolerable place.

Thankfully, it seems that the ever-presence of quality recordings have revived interest that the concert halls have left behind. Factor in that, at least in the US, going to a classical performance is likely prohibitively expensive for the majority of the population, and it’s no wonder interest had waned. It was heartening to read about the several free concerts that various orchestras have put on online during the pandemic attracting a lot of interest and viewers. Things do not appear to be as bad as they once seemed. Good music will live forever, yet.

 

[julian_hughes]

Music forums are the antithesis of music.

 

[scott wurcer]

they apparently got me excluded from communication with this site. I could hardly believe it. I call that group music terrorists rather than music lovers.

Possibly one solution is totally unmoderated fora with no banning of anyone's opinion. Sometimes I sort of miss the total chaos of USENET.

 

[Daverz]

Possibly one solution is totally unmoderated fora with no banning of anyone's opinion. Sometimes I sort of miss the total chaos of USENET.

The Usenet audio groups had almost nothing useful in them. It was mostly the crazy-pants regulars posting spittle-flecked rants rehashing old feuds with each other. There was a moderated high-end group that was quiet and boring, just old duffers rehashing their salad days (well, I'm an old duffer now).

 

[scott wurcer]

The Usenet audio groups had almost nothing useful in them. It was mostly the crazy-pants regulars posting spittle-flecked rants rehashing old feuds with each other. There was a moderated high-end group that was quiet and boring, just old duffers rehashing their salad days (well, I'm an old duffer now).

J_J and Dick Pierce (among others) made many useful contributions, you needed a good noise filter.

 

[Pretorious]

Music forums are the antithesis of music.

Well said! I am beginning to feel this sums up what I’ve been thinking for quite some time. I see so little point of contributing sometimes and find myself lurking whenever I may need some info.

 

[Daverz]

J_J and Dick Pierce (among others) made many useful contributions, you needed a good noise filter.

Yeah. If I recall correctly, Dick was really into Martin Logan electrostats.

 

[raif71]

I think I understand what the OP is going through. I myself was disappointed when IMDB closed its forum. I was actively participating in movie discussions with members whom now I have lost contact with. It was a great platform to discuss about movies and exchanging experiences.

 

[watchnerd]

I call that group music terrorists rather than music lovers.

I'm not a Schoenberg fan and sympathize with the creative vs financial dilemma that faces the classical music scene in the 21st century, and it's been a struggle to be able to fully support my local symphony during Covid when we already have a season's worth of unredeemed ticket credits....but calling a rival faction of music fans "terrorists" doesn't win me over to your POV.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Music forums are the antithesis of music.

Agreed. I always found the rateyourmusic crowd bizzarely specific in their disdain for certain artists or genres. I actually tried to convince myself they like music and I think for a time they did. Interesting to know that history repeats itself and that people have been doing it since the Usenet days. Heh. It’s probably the same people on rym as Usenet...

 

[mSpot]

A usenet group I still look at occasionally, and I feel it has value, is rec.music.classical.recordings

 

[Daverz]

I frequented Talk Classical very briefly because I couldn’t stand ’debating’ with the ultra-modernists on there, so it is interesting to me that you mention some of that Amazon clique had gone there.

No, I don't believe anyone came there from Amazon. It's a very mixed group of people, and the post-war avante-garde would account for a very, very small amount of conversation.

 

[julian_hughes]

To paraphrase: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, critique those who can."

‘Pay no attention to what the critics say. No statue has ever been put up to a critic.’ - Sibelius

 

[julian_hughes]

Agreed. I always found the rateyourmusic crowd bizzarely specific in their disdain for certain artists or genres. I actually tried to convince myself they like music and I think for a time they did. Interesting to know that history repeats itself and that people have been doing it since the Usenet days. Heh. It’s probably the same people on rym as Usenet...

I listen to choral, instrumental, orchestral, church music every day, usually for several hours (It's a modern privilege as I don't have to go to church. Don't laugh, hell awaits.) and I cannot see what an internet discussion group could offer me. If they're talking about music I already know then what can they offer that isn't more easily found in sleeve notes, wikipedia, biographies etc? And for music I don't already know I have to say that a qobuz subscription has opened my eyes & ears to composers & performers & works in an incredible way! I'm a Brit & I like BBC Radio 3 but my god it is stagnant and sclerotic. There are astonishing living, working composers out there whose works are being performed and recorded while the traditional media are asleep or complacently content with bodies of work which were old 50 or 100 years ago. And the European radio stations are even worse, they make stuffy BBC Radio 3 look like gangsta rappers

 

[Daverz]

A usenet group I still look at occasionally, and I feel it has value, is rec.music.classical.recordings

Spent many years on r.m.c.r starting about 1994, but not much the last 12 years or so. I just looked on google groups, and it's much the same group of folks posting as when I left.

If you're on google groups, you might want to check out ConcertArchive and SymphonyShare.

 

[StevenEleven]

In the age of the Internet I like to read up on what has been written about music or musicians. I think music critics are helpful, not so much for their subjective opinions, but for their conveying of interesting histories and information and details.

As for taste, there is no accounting for it, and as for evaluating music, there is no substitute for learning for one’s self, and as for writing in detail about a particular piece of music, it has been said that writing about music is like dancing about architecture.

But as for those who impart accurate information about music (as opposed to judging it, or trying to replicate the musical experience with flowery prose), I am grateful to them.

FWIW.