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The decline and fall of Reflex.

JeffS7444

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You want a manual focus lens for that camera?
Sure, it's not like I'm chasing after kids on a soccer field, and even if I was, folks were able to do this before the days of autofocus.
 

Blumlein 88

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Sure, it's not like I'm chasing after kids on a soccer field, and even if I was, folks were able to do this before the days of autofocus.
Yeah, using a prime is just a different experience.
 

thefsb

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Leica time!
There's a Leica shop nearby in Boston. It makes me smile to do a little mental semiotic comparison with the Hermès shop on the next block when I walk past.
 

thefsb

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Yeah, using a prime is just a different experience.
I love primes but the AF on the 7RM4 so crazy good and Sony's AF primes are too. I've every respect for Cosina's Voigt lenses. I used them when I was still using RFs.

It may be relevant that I hate using tripods.

If I were to indulge my lens GAS, I'd get the 100 mm STF. But there are a lot of nice things you can buy for a grand and a half.
 

rdenney

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There's a Leica shop nearby in Boston. It makes me smile to do a little mental semiotic comparison with the Hermès shop on the next block when I walk past.
Must be on Newbury Street in the Back Bay. I was there a couple of years ago, with a wristwatch collector buddy, and we visited the Richard Mille boutique (read: six figures for watches). They even let me in, but I'm sure it was the company.

But at least Leica stuff is almost as good as it says it is.

Rick "remembers when Leica was for working photographers, not for fetishists" Denney
 

rdenney

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I love primes but the AF on the 7RM4 so crazy good and Sony's AF primes are too. I've every respect for Cosina's Voigt lenses. I used them when I was still using RFs.

It may be relevant that I hate using tripods.

If I were to indulge my lens GAS, I'd get the 100 mm STF. But there are a lot of nice things you can buy for a grand and a half.
It's all about use cases. I love using tripods, and think more about tripod quality than camera quality. But my happy place is 4x5, and for me medium format is a workable compromise, at least terms of what I'd like to be using.

But what I really use, other than my iphone, is a Pentax 645z (loves a tripod but fully workable without it), Canon 5DII (loves being handheld but also loves a tripod), and, finally, either a Sinar P or F 4x5 view camera (I have both--and, of course, utterly unworkable without a stout tripod).

The reason I love tripods is that they are a means to the end of the image quality standard I have set for myself: 16x20 prints that do not undermine the illusion of endless detail at any viewing distance. Actually, the Pentax and (of course) the Sinars can sustain that illusion for much larger prints. But to sustain that illusion with the Canon, I have to use Canon's best and most expensive lenses--and this is true for all the makers of small cameras. I can sustain that illusion with the Pentax using the mid-focal-length zoom that I bought 20 years ago. But Pentax only made pro-grade lenses for the 645 line, and they are all very good.

Yes, my cameras are bulky and heavy, but that's not why they need a tripod. I even have a tripod adapter for my iphone, not that I use it much :)

Rick "who finally spent a thousand bucks on a tripod and now wonders what took him so long" Denney
 

thefsb

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It's all about use cases. I love using tripods, and think more about tripod quality than camera quality. But my happy place is 4x5, and for me medium format is a workable compromise, at least terms of what I'd like to be using.

But what I really use, other than my iphone, is a Pentax 645z (loves a tripod but fully workable without it), Canon 5DII (loves being handheld but also loves a tripod), and, finally, either a Sinar P or F 4x5 view camera (I have both--and, of course, utterly unworkable without a stout tripod).

The reason I love tripods is that they are a means to the end of the image quality standard I have set for myself: 16x20 prints that do not undermine the illusion of endless detail at any viewing distance. Actually, the Pentax and (of course) the Sinars can sustain that illusion for much larger prints. But to sustain that illusion with the Canon, I have to use Canon's best and most expensive lenses--and this is true for all the makers of small cameras. I can sustain that illusion with the Pentax using the mid-focal-length zoom that I bought 20 years ago. But Pentax only made pro-grade lenses for the 645 line, and they are all very good.

Yes, my cameras are bulky and heavy, but that's not why they need a tripod. I even have a tripod adapter for my iphone, not that I use it much :)

Rick "who finally spent a thousand bucks on a tripod and now wonders what took him so long" Denney
Good for you! People make wonderful pictures with these techniques. Good thing they do because i don't think I'd take any if that's what it took.
 

JJB70

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You would probably enjoy a good EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter).

These days a smartphone is all I need, though one of many things I would like as a decadent self-indulgence when the kids finish education is to get an old 35mm Leica M.
 

Wes

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Must be on Newbury Street in the Back Bay. I was there a couple of years ago, with a wristwatch collector buddy, and we visited the Richard Mille boutique (read: six figures for watches). They even let me in, but I'm sure it was the company.

But at least Leica stuff is almost as good as it says it is.

Rick "remembers when Leica was for working photographers, not for fetishists" Denney

That's partly b/c it was the only "miniature" gear available at the time. Nikon introduced it's SP rangefinder in 1957 (Nikon 1 was not a 'pro' camera).

OTOH, nothing is anywhere near as good as Leica for getting the ultimate bokeh in your cat photos...
 

rdenney

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That's partly b/c it was the only "miniature" gear available at the time. Nikon introduced it's SP rangefinder in 1957 (Nikon 1 was not a 'pro' camera).

OTOH, nothing is anywhere near as good as Leica for getting the ultimate bokeh in your cat photos...
I dunno. I think I'd take a Jena-made Zeiss Sonnar any day for bokeh. Great faded-edge bokeh is a product of a bit of residual spherical aberration that appears when a fast lens is using a wide aperture. In the case of the Sonnar, it was made to be fast--it was the first fast normal for the Zeiss Contax back in the deeps of time, in the form of a 50mm (er...5 cm) f/1.5 "normal" lens. The Sonnar had to shift to longer focal lengths for use on reflex cameras. It worked on the Contax at 50mm only because there was no reflex mirror box to avoid. My favorite lens for bokeh is the medium-format 180mm f/2.8 Zeiss Jena Sonnar, made for the Pentacon Six camera (easily adapted to my Pentax 645z, plus most of my 6x6 junque Soviet and East German cameras). At f/2.8, depth of field is razor-thin and rendering is a wide, smooth brush. Double-gauss lenses like most normals (including the Summicron, Planar, Biometar, Xenotar, Summilux, Nokton--I think, and so on) don't do that. They are too highly corrected. They may be fast and have the thin depth of field, but that ain't the same thing.

But if one is going to use extreme selective focus using a very fast lens wide open, and focus accurately on a cat that is not asleep, well, my hat's off to you. My pretty rocks don't move :)

Of course, the Nikon rangefinder was an updated copy of the Zeiss Contax, which was made starting in the 30's. And when they took that body and put a prism on it to create the Nikon F, they weren't really breaking new ground there, either (Exacta was there long before). But they did know how to make it bulletproof, and that was its main feature for Vietnam-era photojournalists, who were the ones who made everyone want one.

Rick "who would have fun playing with a Leica, say, M3, but probably not use it very much" Denney
 

thefsb

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You would probably enjoy a good EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter).
Most digicams have that enabled by default but mechanical "second curtain" and reset is still loud. The trick is to scan the sensor so fast and so carefully that you don't need the mechanical shutter at all. This is the key feature of the Sony A9.

A few years ago I took pics of Wendy Richman during the crucial opening moments of a solo performance of Talus by Ken Ueno. I had no alternatives so was ready with the 7RM3's silent shutter. Then as she took the stage the lighting changed. It looked good but it must have been as LED with high frequency pulse modulation power control because the result was this hideous banding,

http://instagr.am/p/Bi-xT0QnzMm/
After the performance the lights changed and the problem was gone.

http://instagr.am/p/Bi-xYwsn8qM/
There's a fair chance the A9 would have done better but it's hard to be sure.
 

LTig

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The reason I love tripods is that they are a means to the end of the image quality standard I have set for myself: 16x20 prints that do not undermine the illusion of endless detail at any viewing distance.
Yep, to get the best out of the cam I need a tripod as well. I have one print in 60x80 cm and it's sharp even at close viewing distance, despite coming from a 10 MP cam (Nikon D200 with Tokina ATX 12-24, mounted on a Gitzo GTX 3541 with Arca Swiss Z1 head). Another print (same cam and tripod but with Nikkor 1.8/85 AF-D) is also incredibly sharp.
Rick "who finally spent a thousand bucks on a tripod and now wonders what took him so long" Denney
It's always the same ... the standard procedure is to start with a useless $50 discounter tripod, followed by a Manfrotto 055 with Manfrotto head, then one realizes that the head is bad and gets a really good one, just to then realize that the tripid is not up to its task as well and finally buys a Gitzo or similar ... Would have been cheaper and faster to buy the Gitzo at once.
 

JeffS7444

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IMO, bokeh and shallow DOF have become something of a commodity in recent years: The smooth, well-mannered sort is pretty much a given on modern premium lenses, and crazy swirly bokeh can be had cheaply on older lenses like the Helios-44 which is based on an older Sonnar formula.

For me, the fascination with Nikon is in how they emerged from WWII as an ex-defense contractor with no experience in producing cameras, and how quickly they mastered it. Historical footnote: Before designing their own cameras, Nikon supplied optics to other camera companies including Canon.
 

rdenney

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It's always the same ... the standard procedure is to start with a useless $50 discounter tripod, followed by a Manfrotto 055 with Manfrotto head, then one realizes that the head is bad and gets a really good one, just to then realize that the tripid is not up to its task as well and finally buys a Gitzo or similar ... Would have been cheaper and faster to buy the Gitzo at once.

I started big--my first serious tripod was a Bogen 3040 (back in the 70's when Bogen was doing the designs and Manfrotto the manufacturing). David Bogen showed an ad with him sitting on the top of that tripod. I still have it and it still holds a large-format camera with no trouble, but it's not very flexible. The first camera I put on it was a Linhof Kardan Color view camera that my architecture school--pre-engineering--loaned to me for classwork. I also used it for my first commercial camera, a Mamiya C3.

Then, for flexibility, I started down the road of Bogen 3051 and 3036 (same legs for both), of which I have several sets. Manfrotto 028? I can never remember the Manfrotto numbers. I have smaller tripods bought since then, but usually just let my wife use those. I still use those big Bogens for the view camera, with a Sinar tilt-head. The tripod I use with the big Pentax (both the 645z and the 67) is a Gitzo carbon-fiber tripod that is astonishingly rigid, light, and easy to use. That one was expensive, but worth it. I bought it for a photo trip to Alaska just three years ago, so I'm a slow learner.

I don't think all the Bogen/Manfrotto tripods combined add up to what I paid for the Gitzo, but I bought most of them with pre-inflation dollars or second-hand. The Gitzo price was high mostly because of the carbon-composite legs, but those were done right. It's rigid enough for the 400mm lens plus a 1.4x converter on the 645z, which is itself not exactly a lightweight. So are the big Manfrottos. But the Gitzo is much less than half the weight. I use it with an Arca ball head, itself a significant investment.

It is said that amateur photographers talk about cameras until they gain real experience, at which time they talk about lenses, while professionals talk about tripods until they gain experience, at which time they talk about lighting.

Rick "who supplemented grocery money in the day with photography work" Denney
 

rdenney

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IMO, bokeh and shallow DOF have become something of a commodity in recent years: The smooth, well-mannered sort is pretty much a given on modern premium lenses, and crazy swirly bokeh can be had cheaply on older lenses like the Helios-44 which is based on an older Sonnar formula.
The Heliar is nothing like a true Ernostar/Sonnar, even if the diagram looks similar. No traditional Sonnar ever had swirly bokeh.

Rick "who had a Helios and still has an 85/2 Jupiter, which is also not really like a Sonnar even though it's supposed to be, for a couple of Fed rangefinders" Denney
 

Wes

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Maybe we need a thread with vibration measurements of tripods...
 

Blumlein 88

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Maybe we need a thread with vibration measurements of tripods...
I know my Canon Image Stabilized binculars told me to turn off IS if used on a tripod. I thought my Canon DSLR has the same instructions. Both IRC said it would lead to the IS system constantly adjusting without settling down leading to poor results and excessive use of the battery.

OTOH, I'm sure I've seen some astronomy threads measuring vibration on tripods.
 

LTig

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Maybe we need a thread with vibration measurements of tripods...
Why not.

FWIW: I once made a very rudimentary test. A friend came with a new Manfrotto 055 and was convinced that it was cetrainly more stable than my wimpy lookin Gitzo 1541 (~same height, half the weight, 4 times the price). So I took out my heaviest lens, a Nikkor 50-300 AI (more than 2 kg) and mounted it with an Nikon F3 onto my best head, an Arca Swiss Z1, and screwed it onto the Manfrotto. I looked through the view finder, gave the front lens a slap to the side and counted the seconds until the viewfinder showed a stable picture. It took 4 seconds to stabilize. Then we repeated the same with the Gitzo. It took 1 second to stabilize, just according to the price relation :cool:. We did not repeat the test using my bigger Gitzo GTX3541 (even without center column higher but also lighter than the Manfrotto, but 10 times the price) .

Both tripods had their legs fully extended, and I noticed that if you slap the legs of the Manfrotto it would emit a booming sound and the legs (aluminium) vibrated like hell. Nothing of that sort happened with the Gitzo (carbon). So I tried to improve the Manfrotto and pushed all leg segments 5 cm in, thereby loosing some 10 cm in height. Now the booming sound was much shorter and with the big lens mounted it took 1.5 seconds to stabilize - a significant improvement.
 

Chromatischism

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It's always the same ... the standard procedure is to start with a useless $50 discounter tripod, followed by a Manfrotto 055 with Manfrotto head, then one realizes that the head is bad and gets a really good one, just to then realize that the tripid is not up to its task as well and finally buys a Gitzo or similar ... Would have been cheaper and faster to buy the Gitzo at once.
I really enjoy my Robus. Anyone looking at Gitzo should give them a hard look.

I also have a very compact carbon fiber Manfrotto that is good. Different uses.
 
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rdenney

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Here’s my vibration test:

Big_Dipper_galaxies.jpg


This is a greatly enlarged crop from an image made using my 645z and 400mm Pentax FA lens. It is a stack of maybe a couple dozen exposures, but fired with my finger on the button. The dimmest stars are magnitude 12, and I can resolve the spiral arms of M108. Given that this is about 7.5x magnification on the sensor (read, very low) and then cropped to a tiny piece of image, it demonstrates how well the tripod controlled vibration. The stacking software is what prevented trails.

My camera’s sensor has 51 million pixels of 5.6 microns each.

Here’s another, made the same night:

NEOWISE_0718_400_LR.jpg


The image stack targeted the comet, and the stars therefor trailed a bit. This one was 40 images as I recall. No wiggle that I can see.

Here’s the 400 with a 1.4 converter, on the Gitzo:

IMG_0130.JPG


The tripod didn’t fail me here at all.

These are not verification tests to show how much the tripod limited vibration, but rather validation tests to show that it is rigid enough for my use cases.

Rick “still preferring the heavy Manfrotto for the heavy Sinar P, mostly for overturning stability” Denney
 
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