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The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

I think it’s interesting that Audio Technica states their best turntable is the belt driven turntable AT-LPA2 ($2000).
W&F's value is pathetic ( wrms!)... and more than noticeable... truly appalling...
Ultimately, it's an "object"... more than just a record player...
:-0
Sorry...
 
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Not sure I see where it “states” that in the link you provided. The link brings up the lp7x, lpA2, lp8x and lp7. When I do a comparison on that page of the three they all seem pretty equal.
Yeah, I did an edit. My bad. Spec wise I’d agree.
1781188693937.png
 
Yeah, I did an edit. My bad. Spec wise I’d agree.
View attachment 538358
It’s all good. To be honest I really want a direct drive and I’m just not in love with the clear acrylic look. Plus im not ready to dive into MC cartridge territory yet.
 
So I take you are a emphatic NO for the At-lp8x lol
W&F's value is pathetic ( wrms!)... and more than noticeable... truly appalling...
Ultimately, it's an "object"... more than just a record player...
:-0
Sorry...
 
(Example... if just a little serious ingenering...DD machines operate below 0.03% wrms....
The belts, if a little "well-groomed"... a little more, of course...)

Personally, I wouldn't be able to stand it on the piano, etc...

If AT is indeed using WRMS... these values are really nothing to write home about.
Really, really not... disappointing...
(but it will also depend on what you listen to or your requirements...but when you see the price (!) and what's available second-hand much better...uhhhhh)
 
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I’ve had my eye on the lp8x. It’s gotten great reviews and it’s the most affordable of the three. This may sound silly but is the Technics drive that much more superior to the one in the lp8x? I know accuracy is important but I wonder if there is an audible difference between the Audio Technica and the Technics regarding wow and flutter. I wonder if there is a difference in sound?
The issue with th lp8x is AT says < 0.1 which could be pretty good. But without measuring to validate, we don’t know. The Technics have been validated and have the numbers to back up the claims. You could order the AT and test it with solo piano and if the notes don’t waver, you are good. The Technics is proven here, but is more money. Decisions, decisions…..
 
The issue with th lp8x is AT says < 0.1 which could be pretty good. But without measuring to validate, we don’t know. The Technics have been validated and have the numbers to back up the claims. You could order the AT and test it with solo piano and if the notes don’t waver, you are good. The Technics is proven here, but is more money. Decisions, decisions…..
<0.1%..Without a standard, this value makes no sense...

If it seems that at AT, the WRMS (and apparently 0.09% for the DD and 0.12% for the belt)...
that's not good
 
<0.1%..Without a standard, this value makes no sense...

If it seems that at AT, the WRMS (and apparently 0.09% for the DD and 0.12% for the belt)...
that's not good
My point is that less than could mean any value lower that the 0.1% - which could be quite low. We don't really know the number since no one has tested it. If you play piano music and detect no wavering notes with your ears - it could be just "fine". Measurements provide validation, they don't change a devices characteristics. On the other hand, knowing how something measures can sway your thinking - positive or negative depending what the measurements say. Blind testing of 2 different tables would be more useful than just knowing "how it measures". One might discover that one can't tell the difference without knowing. Mostly, doing a blind test is inconvenient so having validation of what matters via measurements can be quite useful.
 
My point is that less than could mean any value lower that the 0.1% - which could be quite low. We don't really know the number since no one has tested it. If you play piano music and detect no wavering notes with your ears - it could be just "fine". Measurements provide validation, they don't change a devices characteristics. On the other hand, knowing how something measures can sway your thinking - positive or negative depending what the measurements say. Blind testing of 2 different tables would be more useful than just knowing "how it measures". One might discover that one can't tell the difference without knowing. Mostly, doing a blind test is inconvenient so having validation of what matters via measurements can be quite useful.
I saw a 0.09% value...which explains the <0.1%... (wrms ?)(and that's normal, otherwise AT would have pointed to a lower value, of course, "to their advantage...").


No need to theorize... wf is a very noticeable and annoying problem...
these values here are high...
Personally, from experience, I cannot use such values... :-(

(Don't forget that this is compounded by the small defects at wf recording in analogique ..and after at printing process, and of course... by the pressing defects, off-centering, etc.)
 
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I don't know for sure whether I'm hearing the effects of switching from the (medium mass?) Audio Technica LP120USB tonearm to Rekkord (aka Dual) ULM low-mass arm, but when paired with the same Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, the tendency towards a bit of buzzy distortion seems to have all but vanished with the lower-mass arm. Wondering if a 2M Bronze or even Shure V15 V w/JICO stylus might be an even better match for ULM.

And as I thought about it, I encountered something similar when I paired a Denon DL103 with Technics SL1200 Mk II: Wasn't at all keen with the initial sonics, and stuffed the headshell full of clay, thinking I was dampening vibrations, and this tweak certainly did seem to deliver smoother sonics. But in retrospect, I wonder if I was mostly increasing effective arm mass, to a range more suitable for the low-compliance DL103. And whether I could've skipped the messy clay altogether by using a DJ headshell fitted with auxiliary 5 gram weight - not to increase VTF, but for the added mass.

Rekkord M500.jpg
 
I don't know for sure whether I'm hearing the effects of switching from the (medium mass?) Audio Technica LP120USB tonearm to Rekkord (aka Dual) ULM low-mass arm, but when paired with the same Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, the tendency towards a bit of buzzy distortion seems to have all but vanished with the lower-mass arm. Wondering if a 2M Bronze or even Shure V15 V w/JICO stylus might be an even better match for ULM.

And as I thought about it, I encountered something similar when I paired a Denon DL103 with Technics SL1200 Mk II: Wasn't at all keen with the initial sonics, and stuffed the headshell full of clay, thinking I was dampening vibrations, and this tweak certainly did seem to deliver smoother sonics. But in retrospect, I wonder if I was mostly increasing effective arm mass, to a range more suitable for the low-compliance DL103. And whether I could've skipped the messy clay altogether by using a DJ headshell fitted with auxiliary 5 gram weight - not to increase VTF, but for the added mass.

View attachment 538456

5g seems light to me but I’m no expert. I use an 18g headshell based on whatever research I did, the bass is fantastic.

IMG_1255.jpeg
 
The inspiration to fuss around with low mass came from an earlier Numark PT01 project, where I kept the stock plastic arm with it's spring downforce, but replaced the stock Chuo Denshi piezo cartridge with an A-T 3600 MM cart, increased the mass of the counterweight for 2 grams of VTF, and replaced the very expired original belt with one sourced from AliExpress. Turns out, that arm + cart combo is stunningly good at tracking even badly warped records that I had previously considered unplayable.

It also got me thinking that, if I could source serviceable belts so cheaply from AE, maybe I ought to reconsider belt-drive. Already got a couple of AE belts for the Rekkord M500, and if I get curious, perhaps I will make measurements to compare OEM to AliExpress part. Wish I had thought of this earlier, while I still had the Linn LP12!

_DSC1907.jpg
 
Yeah, I did an edit. My bad. Spec wise I’d agree.
View attachment 538358
I was tempted, but no way to examine the goods without purchasing the thing outright, and looks are everything with a product like LPA2. Also realized that not only would I see every speck of dust on the turntable, but also beneath it.
 
talking about compliance ... denon tonearm effective mass is 25 grams (towards to heavier) and technics is 12 grams (towards to lighter).
headshell and cartridge mass matters
 
That Denon table was the other table on my radar before buying the SL1300G. How is it performing for you.

I like it a lot, moved my Fluance RT85 to my bedroom and I’ve been spinning a lot more records overall since buying it and purchasing new vinyl just for it. Having fun!
 
talking about compliance ... denon tonearm effective mass is 25 grams (towards to heavier) and technics is 12 grams (towards to lighter).
headshell and cartridge mass matters

I was of the understanding the 25g ish numbers are including the headshell for Denon, this reviewer measured the arm at 12.5g. 18g for my headshell would be too much weight if the arm was 25g I would think?

 
I don't know for sure whether I'm hearing the effects of switching from the (medium mass?) Audio Technica LP120USB tonearm to Rekkord (aka Dual) ULM low-mass arm, but when paired with the same Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, the tendency towards a bit of buzzy distortion seems to have all but vanished with the lower-mass arm. Wondering if a 2M Bronze or even Shure V15 V w/JICO stylus might be an even better match for ULM.

And as I thought about it, I encountered something similar when I paired a Denon DL103 with Technics SL1200 Mk II: Wasn't at all keen with the initial sonics, and stuffed the headshell full of clay, thinking I was dampening vibrations, and this tweak certainly did seem to deliver smoother sonics. But in retrospect, I wonder if I was mostly increasing effective arm mass, to a range more suitable for the low-compliance DL103. And whether I could've skipped the messy clay altogether by using a DJ headshell fitted with auxiliary 5 gram weight - not to increase VTF, but for the added mass.

View attachment 538456
Great looking deck and the Dual tonearm ain't bad at all, despite the detachable headshell;)

I'm about to do this myself to scratch another itch, but the old OM20 always worked in the 505-3 version of this tonearm, so no reason the 2M Blue wouldn't do the same, cleaning up the highs further with the naked elliptical tip...

I've said many times that I love the 2M bronze, which keeps the funky 'vibe' of the Red, but cleans it all up in the highs and seemingly with less fussiness than the Blue is reported to have (I'll find out shortly as regards the Blue).

The V15VMR was one of the best out there, if a good facsimile to the master cut was required, sounding similar too but maybe slightly 'smaller' than a hopefully unmolested digital equivalent of the original master and a good vinyl cut. Loved mine deeply until an accident killed the cantilever :( I've been deeply suspicious of the Jico replacements, but one day, I'll be able to afford to find out.

One more before I shut up - The AT VMx740 may be an interesting one to consider and maybe also, the 745 model. The solid metal mount seems to tame the basic performance a little up-top and this should aid the lively Dual tonearm as well perhaps (I only have a previous AT120E and my Dual dislikes it, either loading, tonearm characteristics or maybe both - My beloved old Dual 701 loves metal bodied MC types, so maybe the 740 as tested in Lowbeats.de, may translate to the Dual arms better ). Not sure if your counterweight allows extra mass to balance heavier pickups, but there used to be a facility for an extra weight to be screwed onto the back and these kits or weights may be available from Dualfred.de or similar specialist vendors with luck.
 
The V15VMR was one of the best out there, if a good facsimile to the master cut was required, sounding similar too but maybe slightly 'smaller' than a hopefully unmolested digital equivalent of the original master and a good vinyl cut.
Unfortunately the norm for tonearm-needle compliance has (similar to the whole vinyl revival trend) has taken a as-backwards step in what would be the best technical solutions for the medium. Super compliant moving magnet needles like the Shure V15s and Stanton 681/881s, when mated to lightweight tonearms allowed for ultra light tracking forces while still being able to track the heaviest modulated grooves with ease. All the while minimizing groove and needle wear at the same time.
The later insistence of the "high end" magazines that low compliance moving coils mated to baseball bat tonearms just "sounded better" took the whole development of vinyl reproduction into the dark ages. :mad:
 
Unfortunately the norm for tonearm-needle compliance has (similar to the whole vinyl revival trend) has taken a as-backwards step in what would be the best technical solutions for the medium. Super compliant moving magnet needles like the Shure V15s and Stanton 681/881s, when mated to lightweight tonearms allowed for ultra light tracking forces while still being able to track the heaviest modulated grooves with ease. All the while minimizing groove and needle wear at the same time.
The later insistence of the "high end" magazines that low compliance moving coils mated to baseball bat tonearms just "sounded better" took the whole development of vinyl reproduction into the dark ages. :mad:
I can't say where (possibly in a HFN article) that research showed the best downforce for a typical elliptical. 2 x -7 tip was around 1/75 g; this is not causing increased wear but helping to push crud out of the way rather than 'bouncing' over it. Over 2.5 g there could be wear, however (the vinyl is elastic).

I have a V15 III, IVhe and the remains of my VMR as well as my 681EEE stylus in a later 680 body. The 681EEE is a little too 'safe balanced' by modern disgital standards (my accumulated Ortofon OM cartridges go too far the other way subjectively althouygh the 2Ms don't seem to. I never did get the HE stylus for the V15 III and didn't know the MR existed until years after, but the stock III can appear a touch 'relentless' in tone, which the HE seemed to totally fix (I should have got a sdtylus when I could).

My current go-to pickup in the 701 is an ADC ZLM with new very low hours stylus. It's a touch on the 'sweet' side (not as much as the XLMs I have here and not as dulled as a Phaser IV) and it doesn't emphasise surface noise as HiFi Choice reviews suggest. Most of my LPs were bought new and have usually been played on decent players however.
 
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