The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Sal1950]

And I'm sure Stereophile's owners have lawyers on retainer, but I'm not sure they have any on the payroll, unles Stereophile is a bigger entity than I imagine.

It's a much bigger entity than you may think.
IIRC, It's changed corporate media owners a couple times since then, and their names I can't remember.
It's current ownership is AVTECH Media Americas LTD.

AVTech Media Americas

Now whither they would be willing to throw the lawyers into the ring for his support is anybodies guess.
Anyhow, as mentioned Mikey left Stereophile for his original, even loonier haunts with Robert Harley and The Absolute Sound. He's mainly ranting his cognitive impaired thoughts at Tracking Angle website. LOL

The vinyl hobby is far from dying, if it was dying companies would not be making new TT's and expensive ones at that and Artists would not be making Lp's out of their music.

The entire pursuit of home Hi Fi is not only dying but on life support and gasping for air.
The inconvenient fad of playing expensive noisy distorted music like it's 1960 will soon go the way of Beanie Babies, Hoola Hoops, and Slinky's. The fact of the matter is the only serious reason supporting it is many currently find it fun, and the corporate moguls love it for it's ability to generate a lot of money for them.

 

[mpw]

As I said to you in the other thread, you need to separate the format from the contents. Digital is the better format, but that does not mean it has the better content…and the content is what you listen to not the format. The format is only a delivery mechanism.

Better format for whom? You can't separate the format from the content because the format contains the content that one listen to.

 

[mpw]

It's a much bigger entity than you may think.
IIRC, It's changed corporate media owners a couple times since then, and their names I can't remember.
It's current ownership is AVTECH Media Americas LTD.

AVTech Media Americas

Now whither they would be willing to throw the lawyers into the ring for his support is anybodies guess.
Anyhow, as mentioned Mikey left Stereophile for his original, even loonier haunts with Robert Harley and The Absolute Sound. He's mainly ranting his cognitive impaired thoughts at Tracking Angle website. LOL

The entire pursuit of home Hi Fi is not only dying but on life support and gasping for air.
The inconvenient fad of playing expensive noisy distorted music like it's 1960 will soon go the way of Beanie Babies, Hoola Hoops, and Slinky's. The fact of the matter is the only serious reason supporting it is many currently find it fun, and the corporate moguls love it for it's ability to generate a lot of money for them.

So you think that Digital streaming is going to replace home Hi Fi? You believe that distorted music(LP's) is dying and not worth listening to? When was last time you played Lp's on a decent system? Lp's can last for centuries as digital can disappear in one command or a streaming services whim. Ones whole NAS server can be gone in one security hack. A streaming service can be taken down by blackhat hackers at any time.

 

[Sal1950]

So you think that Digital streaming is going to replace home Hi Fi?

Sadly Home Hi Fi died decades ago. How many of your friends still have a nice receiver and a couple decent speakers in their living room?
As for streaming, I rarely use it myself, but it has already replaced all hard media around 90/10%

 

[mpw]

Sadly Home Hi Fi died decades ago. How many of your friends still have a nice receiver and a couple decent speakers in their living room?
As for streaming, I rarely use it myself, but it has already replaced all hard media around 90/10%

I don't know lots of audiophile type friends. One guy that lives near me in his late 30's has a nice 2 channel system with a Thorens and VPI Class TT. He repairs TT's . Look at forum members on sites AudiKarma or Hoffman lots have very nice high-end 2 channel systems for both analog and digital. Audio Advisor is here in Raleigh with plenty of high-end 2 channel systems and all kinds of Turntables. How many people do you know that wear mechanical watches, you might know of anyone but that doesn't mean that they are not selling very well world wide. How about all manual camera lens - selling to a large community of photographers. Analog is doing quite well these days even with all the options of digital type things. So you use hard media instead of streaming meaning all your media is on computers ?

 

[MatrixS2000]

Better format for whom? You can't separate the format from the content because the format contains the content that one listen to.

You seem to be using “better” as a preference while I am using it to describe capability. And you are missing my point. I’m not saying format and content are physically separate - you obviously listen to the content that the container holds. You can separate the two logically though. A streaming service is one delivery format, vinyl is another delivery format. They both contain different masterings of the same song. This is the distinction I am pointing out to you.

Better format = how well the delivery format preserves audio (digital > vinyl objectively) and what are the boundaries of its capabilities. I digitize all my records. I know that the digital format can capture 100% of all that vinyl offers. The same cannot be true of vinyl. Vinyl cannot completely capture a digital signal. All you need to do is look at the bass in a digital track. Vinyl cannot cut a deep bass groove into a record - the needle physics would not allow the needle to track the groove properly. That is one limitation of vinyl, there are more.

Content quality = how well the music was mastered (independent of format). Digital has larger capabilities, but that does not mean that the contents within it are better. One detriment to digital’s greater capabilities is that they can and have been abused. That is how the loudness wars start. Many digital releases have their dynamics crushed in the pursuit for loudness. Since vinyl’s format limitations cannot handle those loud levels, this forces a more dynamic mastering for the vinyl release. Thus, two different masters, with each being a perfectly valid preference. I fall into this category.

Yes, format contains content, but a better container doesn’t guarantee better contents. I am actually on your side of this discussion, as I only buy vinyl (which usually includes the digital versions also - making it easy for me to compare masterings) when I purchase music.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Do other people here with belt drive turntables to this as well?

How necessary do you think it is?

Been using a LP12 for decades and have many friends with belt driven turntable and never did or seen anyone do what you described.

Also as others mentioned, I do not stop the table when changing disk, never had any issue with that.

 

[morillon]

Been using a LP12 for decades and have many friends with belt driven turntable and never did or seen anyone do what you described.

Also as others mentioned, I do not stop the table when changing disk, never had any issue with that.

On turntables with very heavy platters...not the case with LP12/ariston...the method is very common...

 

[Bland_username42069]

Sadly Home Hi Fi died decades ago. How many of your friends still have a nice receiver and a couple decent speakers in their living room?
As for streaming, I rarely use it myself, but it has already replaced all hard media around 90/10%

I like them all - vinyl, cds, streaming - and still believe in the supremacy of the matching stack but nearly everyone else I know - it’s tv, PlayStation, or Alexa. I know exactly one other person with a hifi.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't know lots of audiophile type friends. One guy that lives near me in his late 30's has a nice 2 channel system with a Thorens and VPI Class TT. He repairs TT's . Look at forum members on sites AudiKarma or Hoffman lots have very nice high-end 2 channel systems for both analog and digital. Audio Advisor is here in Raleigh with plenty of high-end 2 channel systems and all kinds of Turntables. How many people do you know that wear mechanical watches, you might know of anyone but that doesn't mean that they are not selling very well world wide. How about all manual camera lens - selling to a large community of photographers. Analog is doing quite well these days even with all the options of digital type things. So you use hard media instead of streaming meaning all your media is on computers ?

I have a streaming account with Apple Music but only use it to preview new releases of albums or artists I'm interested in but not familiar with. Don't think that's amounted to more than 6 albums since the first of the year. Mainly I've purchased CD, DVD, and BluRay discs which then get ripped and stored on the computer. More and more over the last decade download options have opened up so the SOTA hardmedia is becoming superfluous and much is now available in HiRez 2ch to Atmos lossless. Just this Feb Steven Wilson opened the Headphone Dust site and is slowly populating it with much of his personal music and outside masterings.
"Immerse yourself in pristine high-res & immersive audio. Pure sound, no compromise."

Headphone Dust

Headphone Dust

headphonedust.store

The Futures So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades.

 

[Robin L]

Going through my old photos today, found some of my turntable systems:

Yard sale, school record player, I think it cost $15. Fun for playing back $1 records in places like the kitchen:

A Sansui 'table that cost me $70, looked solid but ran fast. Didn't last too long in the collection:

(Great Everly Brothers album, BTW.)

This is a Strathclyde 305-m, SME III arm, Shure 97xe cartridge. John Curl gave it to me around 2000. Suspended subchassis design, sagged over time of course, the belt stretched and I couldn't find a replacement. But it ran for nearly 20 years, performed better than all but a few of my turntables:

(2014 mono White Album, great surfaces, one side is audibly off-center. The 1987 stereo CDs are said to be from a flat master, the White Album is the first Beatles album where they had a hand in the stereo mix, therefore . . . )

That Strathclyde in situ, a totally insane collection of speakers lashed together, series and parallel, turntable on the left in between the a/d/s 400 and the Magnapan. Got the Magnapans for free, but only the bass/md panels worked, the a/d/s 400s were from a yard sale for $20, still work just fine, the Mordant-Short speakers were cheap at AMVETS, forget how much, the Infinity speakers $65 in 1998, the Kenwood 9600 was free. The digital source in the picture is an early SACD capable DVD player from Sony, bought it new as I was working at Borders, had access to SACDs as they first appeared, was interested in the new shiny object, got a lot of the BMG "Living Stereo" series, still have them, still play them, have about 90 hi-rez discs including DVD-A and Blu-Ray audio.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

Hey guys I’m in the market for a new turntable. I’d like to keep my budget around $1500. I currently have AT-Lp120xbtUsb fitted with vm540ml cartridge. My phono preamp is a waxwing going optical out into a WiiM ultra going line out into a 3e audio a7 amp. I have my eye on At lp8x, Technics SL-100c and the new Technics SL-1500CS with delta sigma drive. I found the new 1500CS on the HMV website for under $1400. I’m hoping to get some feedback so ff anyone has any experience with these and would like to share I would greatly appreciate it. Also if there are any other recommendations not listed that would be helpful as well. Thanks

 

[jkasch]

Hey guys I’m in the market for a new turntable. I’d like to keep my budget around $1500. I currently have AT-Lp120xbtUsb fitted with vm540ml cartridge. My phono preamp is a waxwing going optical out into a WiiM ultra going line out into a 3e audio a7 amp. I have my eye on At lp8x, Technics SL-100c and the new Technics SL-1500CS with delta sigma drive. I found the new 1500CS on the HMV website for under $1400. I’m hoping to get some feedback so ff anyone has any experience with these and would like to share I would greatly appreciate it. Also if there are any other recommendations not listed that would be helpful as well. Thanks

No personal experience and only two reviews on the Technics site. This one would make me want to buy from a place that offers easy returns.

 

[Robin L]

Here's a somewhat better photo of the Strathclyde in the system:

I built this stack of tiles separated by window putty to make a solid stand for the Strathclyde, which came without a plinth:

Sometimes I'd move the 'table into the bedroom system, much simpler, the Yamaha AVR I'm still using, a pair of Infinity speakers (sorry, forgot the model #), a dual-well cassette deck and a SACD player. That's a 2014 mono copy of "Beatles for Sale", the one early Beatles album where the stereo version sounds better than the mono. It's also the weakest entry among the first four Beatles albums. Odds are you can have a truly great performance or a truly great sounding recording but not both at the same time.:

But the turntable that consistently worked the best was this Technics SL-2, picked up for $50 at the local AMVETs, cracked cover included:

Maybe not the most resistant to footfalls, otherwise tracked better with less distortion thanks to a Shure 44-7 DJ cartridge tracking at 3 grams and absolutely consistent speed, easily adjustable to correct pitch. I see them at Ebay, averaging $300 if you include shipping. Felt more stable to me than the Audio Technica LP-120 or my Linn Sondek LP-12, Valhalla mods and a very nice Audio Technica High output moving coil cartridge with a Shibata profile, $1,000 from an excellent lutist. But it didn't have the sense of speed stability as the Technics, though it got close.

 

[Bob from Florida]

No personal experience and only two reviews on the Technics site. This one would make me want to buy from a place that offers easy returns.
View attachment 538280

The question is whether it is a real wobble or cosmetic optical illusion like in this video of a “perceived” wobble on a new SL1300G. Look carefully at the video and the “wobble” is the result of the decorative edge silver - black thickness variation, not the actual platter. You can make the case for better cosmetics for a $4K table, but in this example - no effect on playback.

Technics Professional Turntable and Tonearm Enthusiasts | UNBELIEVABLE: In spite of the video I send, me repeated clarifying the concern not "wobble" but the quality of the machining of the platter edge | Facebook

UNBELIEVABLE: In spite of the video I send, me repeated clarifying the concern not "wobble" but the quality of the machining of the platter edge. This is the response I got from Technics on an...

www.facebook.com

 

[Bob from Florida]

Hey guys I’m in the market for a new turntable. I’d like to keep my budget around $1500. I currently have AT-Lp120xbtUsb fitted with vm540ml cartridge. My phono preamp is a waxwing going optical out into a WiiM ultra going line out into a 3e audio a7 amp. I have my eye on At lp8x, Technics SL-100c and the new Technics SL-1500CS with delta sigma drive. I found the new 1500CS on the HMV website for under $1400. I’m hoping to get some feedback so ff anyone has any experience with these and would like to share I would greatly appreciate it. Also if there are any other recommendations not listed that would be helpful as well. Thanks

The 1500CS likely has the best wow and flutter, but the AT lp8x is probably good enough and with the platter painted all black you won’t have the edge cosmetic issues that you might have with the Technics. Buy it from Crutchfield and you pay a bit more but have the 60 day return piece of mind.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

The 1500CS likely has the best wow and flutter, but the AT lp8x is probably good enough and with the platter painted all black you won’t have the edge cosmetic issues that you might have with the Technics. Buy it from Crutchfield and you pay a bit more but have the 60 day return piece of mind.

I’ve had my eye on the lp8x. It’s gotten great reviews and it’s the most affordable of the three. This may sound silly but is the Technics drive that much more superior to the one in the lp8x? I know accuracy is important but I wonder if there is an audible difference between the Audio Technica and the Technics regarding wow and flutter. I wonder if there is a difference in sound?

 

[morillon]

Even considering that it would be a 2-sigma measurement, a recent "hard" standard... indicating <0.1% (and not <0.03% etc.)... it's not really a performance... for a direct drive... :-(

We were already doing much better 45/50 years ago...
The vinyl trend really allows you to sell just about anything...and not even at low prices.
(It's really better to stick with their cartridges.)

 

[jkasch]

I’ve had my eye on the lp8x. It’s gotten great reviews and it’s the most affordable of the three. This may sound silly but is the Technics drive that much more superior to the one in the lp8x? I know accuracy is important but I wonder if there is an audible difference between the Audio Technica and the Technics regarding wow and flutter. I wonder if there is a difference in sound?

I think it’s interesting that Audio Technica states their best turntable is the belt driven turntable AT-LPA2 ($2000).

 

[Shotgun Rico]

Not sure I see where it “states” that in the link you provided. The link brings up the lp7x, lpA2, lp8x and lp7. When I do a comparison on that page of the three they all seem pretty equal.