The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Sal1950]

(And please… let’s assume we’re all mature enough to understand that this doesn’t entail debate or claims about the “general superiority of vinyl” or anything like that… just a chance for anybody to render their own impressions about a particular track. I’m fascinated if other people hear it as I do or differently if they do a comparison).

So your not trying to say the vinyl sounds better? BS Matt your just trying to stir a pot without any evidence beyond a subjective claim over two completely different offerings. Who mastered each version, or maybe its the distortion added to the vinyl master that makes it sound that way?
You want to start this crap but don't expect any pushback.

 

[levimax]

Here is some vinyl playback that we can be courteous about ….

Michael Fremer is putting out daily vinyl rips on his YouTube channel. This is Squeeze’s “Tempted” from the original British pressing:

The reason I’m posting it is because when I first listened to it, I thought “ wow that sounds really nice.”

So out of curiosity, I dialled up Tempted on Apple Music and went back-and-forth I was surprised at how much more I preferred this vinyl rip. The Apple Music version sounded to me strangely more crude, crunchy, edgy maybe a bit brighter, and more two dimensional sounding. I find the vinyl version sounds more natural, like I can hear the sense of space between the vocalist and drums, etc. better, the snare drum sounds a bit richer like it has more heft. I get the sense more of listening to a drummer playing. That kind of stuff.

But then, I only have my iPhone at the moment, which isn’t hooked up to my system or anything.

So I’m wondering if anybody else wants to take a listen to that vinyl rip and compare it to maybe a streaming version, and see what you think. Do you hear things differently than I do? Perhaps a preference for the streaming version instead?

(And please… let’s assume we’re all mature enough to understand that this doesn’t entail debate or claims about the “general superiority of vinyl” or anything like that… just a chance for anybody to render their own impressions about a particular track. I’m fascinated if other people hear it as I do or differently if they do a comparison).

I have continued with my comparisons of First Pressings and later digital version of music and all I can say is that this is a very mild difference compared to some of the stuff I have seen / heard. See below FR analysis Yellow is the LP from the Utube video and Red is from Qobuz. Interestingly it looks like Fremers TT has some pretty strong peaking going on above 14 Khz... I can't hear it but is shows up even through Utube. I am also attaching a link to level matched samples if someone wants to listen. When I listen like this I tend to lock on to something I can successfully ABX and in this case the vocals are different and I can ABX 100% without a lot of trouble. As far as which I prefer, it would be the vinyl version but these recording are not vastly different.

Box

app.box.com

Edit: This is great song I had forgotten about, great to hear it again. I then really cranked it up and on the LP version I noticed my subs flapping around at low frequency.... apparently Mr. Fremer doesn't use a rumble filter. Amazing both the peaking and LF resonance makes it through to a Utube recording.

Yellow is LP, Red is Qobuz

 

[MattHooper]

I have continued with my comparisons of First Pressings and later digital version of music and all I can say is that this is a very mild difference compared to some of the stuff I have seen / heard. See below FR analysis Yellow is the LP from the Utube video and Red is from Qobuz. Interestingly it looks like Fremers TT has some pretty strong peaking going on above 14 Khz... I can't hear it but is shows up even through Utube. I am also attaching a link to level matched samples if someone wants to listen. When I listen like this I tend to lock on to something I can successfully ABX and in this case the vocals are different and I can ABX 100% without a lot of trouble. As far as which I prefer, it would be the vinyl version but these recording are not vastly different.

Box

app.box.com

Yellow is LP, Red is Qobuz
View attachment 533940

Awesome thank you Levimax. I was hoping you might show up with this type of analysis, especially some level matched files.

I’m finding that the Qobuz and Vinyl rip sound more similar than the Apple stream track I’ve been using to compare. Apple music streams on my system have for some reason I always sounded a bit different to me than the same songs played back via my ripped CDs or Tidal versions. Though I have to use Apple AirPlay in order to stream to my system, which could be a possible factor. I don’t know. And I’m also not able to perfectly level match on my iPhone. Although the Sonic difference is, I was talking about seem to persist whether I playback the Apple track louder or quieter than the vinyl rip. The same impression remains. I just don’t have an ABX set up to rule out the variables.

I’m also curious as to other people’s opinions on this track.

 

[Sal1950]

Here's the fact we all know and acknowledge. Start to finish Vinyl is miles behind even 16/44.1 digital in being able to best reproduce the sound of a analog or digital master recording. Period.
Now if I was to go on a high performance auto website and applaud the fact that someone in a factory stock Toyota Camry beat Doug Kalitta's Top Fuel dragster in a heads-up race this weekend I'd be ROTF laughed at by the readers who secure in the knowledge that SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE went badly wrong. LOL
Now was the steam Matt heard broken, are there other digital sources available that show off the problems with that stream, is Matt's streaming path-gear just plain crappy??? There are all sort of other questions here that could be asked but why bother, we all know there's a dead fish in the boat somewhere. Why post these irrelevant outlier comparisons other than to stir the pot of controversy?
What would you say if I was to compare the sound of 2 speaker cables, one a $5 50' piece of 24g aluminum twinlead, and the other a $50,000 5' pure silver stranded 8g twinlead. Even show you some measurements proving the superior performance of expensive one. Would I be justified in encouraging folks to spend the money on it?
Lets keep our heads above the waters edge of integrity in bringing our readers honest, factual information on the SOTA in High Fidelity music reproduction for the home.

 

[levimax]

Here's the fact we all know and acknowledge. Start to finish Vinyl is miles behind even 16/44.1 digital in being able to best reproduce the sound of a analog or digital master recording. Period.
Now if I was to go on a high performance auto website and applaud the fact that someone in a factory stock Toyota Camry beat Doug Kalitta's Top Fuel dragster in a heads-up race this weekend I'd be ROTF laughed at by the readers who secure in the knowledge that SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE went badly wrong. LOL
Now was the steam Matt heard broken, are there other digital sources available that show off the problems with that stream, is Matt's streaming path-gear just plain crappy??? There are all sort of other questions here that could be asked but why bother, we all know there's a dead fish in the boat somewhere. Why post these irrelevant outlier comparisons other than to stir the pot of controversy?
What would you say if I was to compare the sound of 2 speaker cables, one a $5 50' piece of 24g aluminum twinlead, and the other a $50,000 5' pure silver stranded 8g twinlead. Even show you some measurements proving the superior performance of expensive one. Would I be justified in encouraging folks to spend the money on it?
Lets keep our heads above the waters edge of integrity in bringing our readers honest, factual information on the SOTA in High Fidelity music reproduction for the home.

No doubt digital is superior to LP in every way. It is also true that in many cases mastering differences are far more audible than the difference between digital and LP. I have seen 7 dB difference in FR due to mastering. Preference for mastering is a preference. This is also a vinyl thread so we don't have any obligation to school people on vinyls shortcomings.

 

[Sal1950]

Preference for mastering is a preference. This is also a vinyl thread so we don't have any obligation to school people on vinyls shortcomings.

But we don't lie to them either. When you start posting a thread claiming A sounded better than B, we owe it to them to qualify that with supportable evidence. Specially when the claim runs counter to known science.

 

[PetZoundz]

Awesome thank you Levimax. I was hoping you might show up with this type of analysis, especially some level matched files.

I’m finding that the Qobuz and Vinyl rip sound more similar than the Apple stream track I’ve been using to compare. Apple music streams on my system have for some reason I always sounded a bit different to me than the same songs played back via my ripped CDs or Tidal versions. Though I have to use Apple AirPlay in order to stream to my system, which could be a possible factor. I don’t know. And I’m also not able to perfectly level match on my iPhone. Although the Sonic difference is, I was talking about seem to persist whether I playback the Apple track louder or quieter than the vinyl rip. The same impression remains. I just don’t have an ABX set up to rule out the variables.

I’m also curious as to other people’s opinions on this track.

Qobuz has the 2021 remaster of East Side Story; Apple Music does not, so you could be listening to two different masterings. And even if it is the same master, Apple Music normalizes to -16 LUFS, Qobuz does not.

 

[Labhound]

Qobuz has the 2021 remaster of East Side Story; Apple Music does not, so you could be listening to two different masterings. And even if it is the same master, Apple Music normalizes to -16 LUFS, Qobuz does not.

I turned off "Sound Check" in Apple Music to get rid of normalization.

 

[MattHooper]

Qobuz has the 2021 remaster of East Side Story; Apple Music does not, so you could be listening to two different masterings. And even if it is the same master, Apple Music normalizes to -16 LUFS, Qobuz does not.

Thanks.

Yes I definitely assumed possible variations in mastering. This wasn’t meant to be some definitive comparison in any way. My point was to grab any other version somebody had available, whether it was CD (may be ripped on their server) or any streaming service… whatever they have, and just see whether they prefer it over that particular vinyl rip, or if they prefer the digital version.

I was simply looking for people’s own experience comparing that rip to whatever digital version they have on hand whatever it is.

 

[PetZoundz]

Thanks.

Yes I definitely assumed possible variations in mastering. This wasn’t meant to be some definitive comparison in any way. My point was to grab any other version somebody had available, whether it was CD (may be ripped on their server) or any streaming service… whatever they have, and just see whether they prefer it over that particular vinyl rip, or if they prefer the digital version.

I was simply looking for people’s own experience comparing that rip to whatever digital version they have on hand whatever it is.

Oh I understand, I wasn’t criticizing. I will add that the original UK pressing for that album is a George Peckham “Porky Prime Cut”, and it’s fantastic. Although my personal favorite is the MFSL CD, and I’m not typically a fan of Mobile Fidelity’s house sound.

 

[MattHooper]

Oh I understand, I wasn’t criticizing. I will add that the original UK pressing for that album is a George Peckham “Porky Prime Cut”, and it’s fantastic. Although my personal favorite is the MFSL CD, and I’m not typically a fan of Mobile Fidelity’s house sound.

Interesting thanks.

I frankly have never been a big fan of that album. I don’t know why I’ve never connected to either of the songs or the production sound in that particular album.

But I’m a huge fan of Argybargy! Every song in that album is burned into my DNA from spinning it endlessly when I was young. And I still love listening to it.

My copy is an original pressing and it sounds great.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Here is some vinyl playback that we can be courteous about ….


(And please… let’s assume we’re all mature enough to understand that this doesn’t entail debate or claims about the “general superiority of vinyl” or anything like that… just a chance for anybody to render their own impressions about a particular track. I’m fascinated if other people hear it as I do or differently if they do a comparison).

So your not trying to say the vinyl sounds better? BS Matt your just trying to stir a pot without any evidence beyond a subjective claim over two completely different offerings. Who mastered each version, or maybe its the distortion added to the vinyl master that makes it sound that way?
You want to start this crap but don't expect any pushback.

@MattHooper & @Sal1950 - I think everyone knows by now, you two have “disagreements”. That may be putting it mildly.

A couple of things would be nice going forward. First - stop trolling each other in this thread. Second, this is more directed to Sal, your posts here have become the proverbial “broken record” with continuous reminders of the “pecking” order of recording playback choices. The repetition serves no purpose other than to “push buttons”. How about giving it a “rest”.

 

[MattHooper]

@MattHooper & @Sal1950 - I think everyone knows by now, you two have “disagreements”. That may be putting it mildly.

A couple of things would be nice going forward. First - stop trolling each other in this thread. Second, this is more directed to Sal, your posts here have become the proverbial “broken record” with continuous reminders of the “pecking” order of recording playback choices. The repetition serves no purpose other than to “push buttons”. How about giving it a “rest”.

Thanks.

Nothing in my post was remotely meant to troll anybody. It was just the opposite. I did add the part brackets to try and head off any incorrect inferences about the point of my post. I don’t see Sal’s posts.

But if that part offends, I will go remove it.

 

[Newman]

This is also a vinyl thread so we don't have any obligation to school people on vinyls shortcomings.

OTOH exaggerating about its strengths does nobody any favours either. One could say that Sal is helping to keep that tendency in balance.

If the issue is really Sal's style more than his substance, then maybe it is overly defensive to complain too much about style, if the substance is about right? As long as nobody is being called an idiot etc. I want the thread to stick to its stated mission of courteous discourse.

But style is like personality, and better to celebrate the many flavours of personality in this forum than to take offence based on subject matter. IMHO.

cheers

 

[drewdawg999]

I’m also curious as to other people’s opinions on this track.

Listened to Fremer's needle drop, and the official Squeeze track on Youtube, as well as Levimax's level matched samples. There's not much between them but if I had to choose, I'd say the needle drop sounds best. I'm on IEMs here (Kiwi x HBB Punch) and I like bass a lot and it's a push there, but even on Fremer's ultra high end setup there's a treble rolloff so the presentation is smoother. On the official Squeeze track the treble seems edgy and too sharp, something unnatural about it, but only relatively with AB quick switching. If I were to just listen to it on it's own, it would probably be fine. Might even find it snappy.

It appears the Porky Peckham mastering is preferable. He is somewhat famous while whoever mastered it for Youtube is not, maybe not a fair fight. The record was produced by Elvis Costello, a vinyl lover, so perhaps the stars aligned and we wound up with an outstanding pressing. Mastering is tricky business, artistic and emotional it is. But mastering for vinyl is meant for the home system, while mastering for Youtube is a total crapshoot, it could be on a phone, or on cheap earbuds, or even wind up playing in the car. I would argue that in the current climate, most care is taken in vinyl mastering. And if you can perceive a mastering difference, and you wind up preferring it, then that medium is plenty good enough for the purposes of musical enjoyment.

 

[Holmz]

But we don't lie to them either. When you start posting a thread claiming A sounded better than B, we owe it to them to qualify that with supportable evidence. Specially when the claim runs counter to known science.

Which science are you referring to?
Some technical specs on SNR?
Or what exactly? (Cross talk?)


There is almost no audible difference between a nice TT and digital.
Or at least no negative one.

There can be, as mentioned, a huge difference in mastering. And some of the older LPs had a much higher dynamic range than new mixes on CD.
And those may sound a lot better on earbuds.

Which specific evidence is there that the digital is better?

 

[Newman]

@Bob from Florida are you happy for the above questions to be answered?

 

[goat76]

OTOH exaggerating about its strengths does nobody any favours either. One could say that Sal is helping to keep that tendency in balance.

If the issue is really Sal's style more than his substance, then maybe it is overly defensive to complain too much about style, if the substance is about right? As long as nobody is being called an idiot etc. I want the thread to stick to its stated mission of courteous discourse.

But style is like personality, and better to celebrate the many flavours of personality in this forum than to take offence based on subject matter. IMHO.

cheers

I don't think it's about Sal’s “style” or the way he says what he says. The question is why he feels he needs to constantly point out that vinyl is technically inferior to digital formats, when there’s no one here arguing against that fact. Who is he arguing with? He is just repeating the same thing over and over again, something that everyone here already knows.

When @MattHooper is asking a simple question if people prefer the sound of a particular vinyl release over a digital release, the question is not about which one is technically superior to the other.

 

[AndyMorris]

I've got spikes and a safety rope to keep from falling in.
You can never be to careful you know.


If I owned a TT that might be an interesting experiment.
I wonder if Audacity could correct the vertical modulation issues?
Grab one off ebay and let us know how it works out.

if you recorded it in stereo, you could then split it to two mono tracks, invert one of them then "mix and render" them into one new mono track.

 

[Bland_username42069]

Sal in 6 months time. “Well I just came across this historically significant wax cylinder. It was only $3”

Sal in a year’s time with an Archeophone