The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[MattHooper]

Regarding Rumours, early on I picked up this 2011 vinyl release:

Rumours by Fleetwood Mac (1977).

Shared by Discographic App

https://www.discogs.com/release/13199486-Fleetwood-Mac-Rumours

Given the reputation for the album, I was surprised that at least this copy sounded slightly dull and closed in. I wonder why.
I’ve never heard any other copies.

 

[Robin L]

I seem to remember that at one point you were dealing with a lot of records that weren’t necessarily your own - associated with the radio station or something? Or archive activity? Am I remembering wrong?
Or were you using the rec cleaning machine, etc. for your own records?

I got the VPI 16 back when I was working on some programs for Music from the Hearts of Space. This was in the late 1980s, a lot of the recordings we were using—mostly sacred choral, FWIW—were only available on LPs at the time, though we did use a CD player and many of the titles we aired later became available as CDs. There was a Thorens turntable with a decent cartridge, we had a Burwen-styled click/pop remover badged as "KLH". LPs were first transferred to a 15 ips Tascam 32 half-track 1/4", then to a Sony 501 ADC into a Betamax cartridge. Sounded horrible but just wait until you hear the data-starved satellite broadcast. This all changed in just a couple of years, by then I had moved on to recording concerts and such on a DAT machine and everybody else had moved on to making these sorts of "mixtapes" in the digital domain thanks to DAWs that worked with home PCs.

 

[Bland_username42069]

And a timely review of the Sugar Cube noise reduction system by the always thorough Techmoan.

This seems to actually work very well.

 

[drewdawg999]

Rumours was recorded at the legendary Sound City and that place was all analog and old fashioned even by 1970s standards. Things were done the old way there for better or worse. Some people love it, but albums recorded there can lack the polish of more advanced studios. Whether that is a bad or good thing really depends on the listener.

It was mixed at Sound City. Recorded at many locations, pulled from credits on Discogs:


Recorded at:
Record Plant, Sausalito and Los Angeles, CA
Wally Heider Recording Studios, Hollywood, CA
Criteria Studios, Miami, FL
Davlen Recording Studio, North Hollywood, CA

Mixed at:
Sound City, Van Nuys, CA
Record Plant, Los Angeles, CA

"Songbird" recorded at Zellerback Auditorium, U.C. Berkeley, Berkeley, CA, March 3, 1976 [Zellerback wrongly spelled on release


I personally love the sound of the album, representative of the excess and decadence of the times. It hasn't been high fidelity until the double 45rpm pressing. Special care was taken in the mastering by Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman, to make it sound like a cohesive album. Love the results, real ballsy with big thick bass, very dynamic and cut real loud too.

 

[daide]

And a timely review of the Sugar Cube noise reduction system by the always thorough Techmoan.

This seems to actually work very well.

if i'm not wrong they should use Clickrepair or something born from it, so I would assume the performance could be quite similar

 

[Bland_username42069]

if i'm not wrong they should use Clickrepair or something born from it, so I would assume the performance could be quite similar

I saw someone say that they updated the code before Sugar cube approached them and said that they had acquired Clickrepair so it’s not ababdonware. Presumably that’s what they are running in their version 2 models along with the Denoise software.

So $40 shareware turned into $3000 hardware which is annoying

 

[JP]

There’s no such thing as abandonware, legally. At least in most of the world. IANAL.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Yes, many programs have that functionality to only listen for what is removed, and you are probably correct when you say that they can be fairly transparent if you fiddle with the settings. Such a program can probably work if the goal is to digitize a vinyl record, but have you ever found a program that you can set and forget in a real-time application, as I think is what most people here want with the use of Waxwing or similar gear?

Adobe Audition’s Click Repair is the closest I’ve found to that use case. The light preset works for almost all new albums and medium for the rest. I can hear the filter at high. But not at light or medium. Sighted. So I just leave it on medium. It is my default DAW for playing back vinyl, the filter is that good. I don’t use it for anything else. My own stuff is built in Logic.

 

[spiral scratch]

I have used record brushes like these—the original Discwasher specifically—and found that these brushes would transmit some of the dirt/grease from a dirty record to a clean one. I've had better luck with vacuum cleaners, used a VPI 16 for about 30 years, but if one has a decent technique the results are nearly as good as vacuuming when one cleans LPs in the sink. One has to avoid label damage and use soft, clean towels and other cleaning implements. I had good luck with new sponges and a drop or two of Dawn to a gallon of liquid, rinse with tap water.

Just grab one of these: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/37677182441...Ib2WXrS9X+DNUan9BKaFu57sA=|tkp:Bk9SR_6Qte6kZw ...or do a search for record cleaning clamp. It's pretty handy

Similar to the one the "Aqueous Cleaning..." guy recommends, but about 1/2 price.

 

[DSJR]

Interesting, need to listen properly in the future.

Whoever it was that first mentioned this darned band on here, you have me totally hooked Cheered this jaded soul up no end

They 'sound' good too.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Just grab one of these: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/376771824410?_skw=record+cleaning+clamp&itmmeta=01KMKED91GBFX9RZRREPV2RJ0B&hash=item57b959cb1a:gskAAeSwsU5pO4FM&itmprp=enc:AQALAAAA0GfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xBw/789EOMA9nb3Q3L5LUObKbOzO+1L3CTLS0sZiBQ9c5L2WbjBOGRwDaC+5V4ZMT+GV1L3dS8IN7bBWhx46imGFYHiRkWgZSGAMEm8AL1uVjY6eSE+RyPo+rTv6cW7kfa3yoHdyxjR/+scSMureH4XPAXhGK9MgWN/j0Vs2V88oivanOhr910uKm7F9hZhNI94xOaNt/FsWHpY63ilMDOx2JO+WD0HqY7WcxkGCTIb2WXrS9X+DNUan9BKaFu57sA=|tkp:Bk9SR_6Qte6kZw ...or do a search for record cleaning clamp. It's pretty handy

Similar to the one the "Aqueous Cleaning..." guy recommends, but about 1/2 price.

I got that, wash my record with running tap water and soap if dirty second hand records enter the premises ,, no problems

 

[mike70]

It's not easy to find a label protector for 7"... I'm cleaning in without it and I can't see any damage to the label, but... maybe I'm lucky.

 

[Robin L]

It's not easy to find a label protector for 7"... I'm cleaning in without it and I can't see any damage to the label, but... maybe I'm lucky.

"Careful" is more like it. I never had a label protector, don't think they were available back when I was really involved with vinyl. But I did have a few 45s and I washed a few of those without damaging the label.

 

[Cote Dazur]

In the last 3 month, I gradually spend more time, when listening to music using my turntable.
I also spend more time, not as much, but still, listening to my CD's.
What I noticed is that more of my CD's than my LP's present defects.
Almost all my LP's, play without issues, but many CD's have tracks not playing, the aluminum is decaying, so no cleaning will fix that. So much for CD being more resilient than LP's.. On the bright side, I have all my CD's on Flacs, so I did not loose anything.
As I am digging in my record collection, I found this record.

Very nice, I forgot how good the music is on that album, I even forgot about Sam Rivers. If, like me, you enjoy jazz, this is Sam in top form with a band of great Jazz musicians. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

 

[rdenney]

Out of several hundred CD's that I have ripped, I've had precisely two that weren't accepted by the very demanding Exact Audio Copy software. Both of them were rippable using my player software, Music Bee. I assume that Music Bee just ignored whatever minor data glitches caused the checksum rejection from EAC, but my ears can't hear them.

Being able to play CD-R's is another matter, but so far my old premium CD players are doing better with that than newer CD players with lower-grade mechanisms.

We have come to understand that analog television could degrade gradually to the point where a (very) low signal/noise ratio meant a snowy but still viewable image. Digital TV, on the other hand, may pixelate a bit right at the boundary but the change in signal quality between nearly perfect and no signal at all is comparatively much more narrow. But CD's are actually better than that--lots of CD players have abundant error correction and sampling techniques that overcome digital errors and still provide playable music. LP's degrade more gradually, and, of course, they don't provide nearly as high a signal/noise ratio compared to CD's in the first place, but even ancient and abused pressings may reveal historical performances never really stored in the digital realm robustly enough to survive data losses from bankruptcies, corporate takeovers, and changes in business models. For a few recordings, and maybe more and more as time goes on, we have to choose between the high surface noise of old vinyl and nothing at all.

Most people who are only interested in popular and relatively recently recorded music probably won't face that issue or be swayed by the argument.

So, the cause of getting the most out of this archaic technology is both interesting and rewarding, and may also help to preserve performance examples that are otherwise disappearing because they are not sufficiently popular to commercially justify their continued sustenance.

To that end, I'm happy to report that my newly restored Linn Axis with the Adikt cartridge is performing very well indeed, using the phono amp built into my Holman Preamplifier. For what I paid (basically, only the cost of repair materials), I'm quite pleased. My vintage budget Thorens also performs quite well, but it took a lot more work to get to that point. And it still struggles to change speed reliably without dumping the belt, even after quite a lot of work on the pulley and clutch.

Rick "has quite a few recordings that are neither pop nor recent" Denney

 

[MaxwellsEq]

What I noticed is that more of my CD's than my LP's present defects.
Almost all my LP's, play without issues, but many CD's have tracks not playing, the aluminum is decaying, so no cleaning will fix that

You need to check your player. The laser may be no longer in spec or the setup is wrong. Of the more than a 1000 CDs I own, many from the earliest days of CD, I've had five failures.

One was from a known manufacturing failure where poor quality means moisture can get in (the CD becomes discolored with age). The others did not have discoloration, and looked perfect, but when a bright light is held up to one side, there are patches where the mirroring is poor and so the laser will not be reflected back. These are not degradations with time, but poor quality control in manufacturing.

BUT, you are right, a well preserved LP will be playable for decades, perhaps centuries. And it doesn't need lasers, servo controls, a method to read the TOC, DACs etc to interpret the music. In fact as a kid I stuck a sewing needle to a piece of card and held it the groove of an LP whilst rotating the disc and I could hear music!

There's no evidence of major CD rot, so perhaps they'll survive centuries as well, but you won't be able to listen to them with a sewing needle!

 

[Soniclife]

Whoever it was that first mentioned this darned band on here, you have me totally hooked Cheered this jaded soul up no end

They 'sound' good too.

Volume 2 comes out in about a week.

 

[goat76]

At first, I had this idea that I should probably have to digitize all my vinyl records while they are still new, before the sound degrades by playing them too many times, but will the records really degrade noticeably? Have you noticed that over time with your records, or is that mostly a thing some "audiophiles" are overly concerned about?

 

[antcollinet]

At first, I had this idea that I should probably have to digitize all my vinyl records while they are still new, before the sound degrades by playing them too many times, but will the records really degrade noticeably? Have you noticed that over time with your records, or is that mostly a thing some "audiophiles" are overly concerned about?

Mainly the latter I think.

Unless you are going to play an album 10 times a day for a year - I think you'll be fine. My most precious album is the only one I have that belonged to my Dad - a 1964 copy of A Hard Day's Night. I was a two yo when he bought that. It still plays fine.

 

[Cote Dazur]

At first, I had this idea that I should probably have to digitize all my vinyl records while they are still new, before the sound degrades by playing them too many times, but will the records really degrade noticeably? Have you noticed that over time with your records, or is that mostly a thing some "audiophiles" are overly concerned about?

To me it is just an other fairy tale from “audiophiles”, records get dirty but they do not degrade from playing if your TT is not badly set up.
And if you handle them well, you clean them once and you are done.
One thing that also help are anti static sleeve to keep the static at bay, anyone else share my opinion on anti static sleeve?