The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[mike70]

Yep There's always been numerous trade-offs in vinyl composition, needle profiles, tracking pressure & skating force, etc, etc etc that come into play. They effect the wear of both the playing surface and needle itself.
Like most all other 100 year old technologies, they have all sort of issues that modern equipment has eliminated and supplanted

Everything's quickest now, CDs have almost 50 years... and streaming eliminated the issues with cds playback.

 

[Sal1950]

Everything's quickest now, CDs have almost 50 years... and streaming eliminated the issues with cds playback.

Eliminated most specially offering increased convenience.
On the other hand some has been lost in the area of choice.
Some albums have numerous reissues to choose from on CD while streamers will only offer one or two.

 

[mike70]

Some albums have numerous reissues to choose from on CD while streamers will only offer one or two.

and that's important for you ... but 85% of the marketshare says other things.

 

[rdenney]

and that's important for you ... but 85% of the marketshare says other things.

One of the things that marks human endeavor is individuality. The only time I care about what 85% of the market is doing is when I'm trying to buy and sell stuff. Markets drive prices and availability, and streaming services will always be constrained by market choices. My personal CD library will not be so constrained.

Rick "streaming will vanish or change when it's no longer a good business model, and will be replaced by something modern streaming enthusiasts may not like, such as much higher prices" Denney

 

[mike70]

One of the things that marks human endeavor is individuality. The only time I care about what 85% of the market is doing is when I'm trying to buy and sell stuff. Markets drive prices and availability, and streaming services will always be constrained by market choices. My personal CD library will not be so constrained.

Rick "streaming will vanish or change when it's no longer a good business model, and will be replaced by something modern streaming enthusiasts may not like, such as much higher prices" Denney

ok, but i was talking about the advantages of new technologies with older ones ... sal1950 talked about vinyl with CDs, and i talked about CDs and streaming, is more clear?

i only use physical media also, but i'm trying to say that personal preferences are personal preferences and they aren't valid or invalid per sé, we need to have care about personal preferences. And the absolute major part of people doesn't use vinyl or CDs and you continue to listen to "but vinyl is old and horrible format".
Live and let live.

That's all.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Let’s try to stick with vinyl on this thread. While most of us - myself included - have multiple sources for music, this thread’s focus is the vinyl source. For further clarification, reread post # 1.

 

[Sal1950]

and that's important for you ... but 85% of the marketshare says other things.

Very true, the average user cares little about sound quality.
But this site is designed for folks that do care and that's who I'm talking with and to here. And the #1 complaint I hear leveled against CDs here is the heavy compression (loudness war style) that has been done to many classic reissues. When ever I purchased a CD over the last decade or so, I would first check to see if it had a listing on the "dynamic range database" to learn the options. These are the options mostly not available to the streamer only listener and why I would never give up having a local library of the music I most love.
Now say you wanted a copy of Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms, which one would you buy ?

 

[Bob from Florida]

Very true, the average user cares little about sound quality.
But this site is designed for folks that do care and that's who I'm talking with and to here. And the #1 complaint I hear leveled against CDs here is the heavy compression (loudness war style) that has been done to many classic reissues. When ever I purchased a CD over the last decade or so, I would first check to see if it had a listing on the "dynamic range database" to learn the options. These are the options mostly not available to the streamer only listener and why I would never give up having a local library of the music I most love.
Now say you wanted a copy of Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms, which one would you buy ?
View attachment 516762

I have both versions from 1985 - vinyl and cd. Both are excellent recordings. Close enough on playback with either one, very similar sound quality. One thing about Dire Strats is they cared about the recording.

I have many favorite vinyl recordings and the 3 that I own from Dire Straits are in that group!

 

[levimax]

I have both versions from 1985 - vinyl and cd. Both are excellent recordings. Close enough on playback with either one, very similar sound quality. One thing about Dire Strats is they cared about the recording.

I have many favorite vinyl recordings and the 3 that I own from Dire Straits are in that group!

I also have both the original CD and the original vinyl. Both mastered by Robert Ludwig and he did a great job on both. The only problem with the LP is that in order to preserve sound quality they shortened some of the songs. If I was going to buy now I would get both the original CD and original LP

 

[pablolie]

and that's important for you ... but 85% of the marketshare says other things.

To me, there is zero difference between listening to my nearly 5,000 ripped CDs and Spotify. It's the exact same system and experience and user interface to play music. And there are about 50 or so digitized vinyl albums in there I have never been able to find online anywhere.

"The Market" doesn't always get it right until things balance out, so I'd lean less on the argument of mass adoption [1]. I also have never seen market stats that separate buying and downloading MP3 files or albums on Amazon from just being subscribed to a streaming service, seems it all falls under the same category.

[1] Which in no way means I dispute the total domination of streaming for music consumption, but I sometimes think because a lot of today's music was never made to instill true passion in music that should be collected, and not forgotten.

 

[aagstn]

That 1985 Brothers in Arms was in every CD player, in every hifi store I walked in to sell people CD players after it came out. It was that good of an album and you definitely wanted a CD player after hearing it. The record was good as well, but that album was made for the compact disc.

 

[Sal1950]

[1] Which in no way means I dispute the total domination of streaming for music consumption, but I sometimes think because a lot of today's music was never made to instill true passion in music that should be collected, and not forgotten.

A ton of truth there.

I also have both the original CD and the original vinyl. Both mastered by Robert Ludwig and he did a great job on both. The only problem with the LP is that in order to preserve sound quality they shortened some of the songs. If I was going to buy now I would get both the original CD and original LP

Yes and the CD is dead quiet, forever. If the LP came even close when new, it wasn't after a while.

But my whole point there was in response to @mike70 and simply to show that if you limit your source to streaming, many albums have a large variety of masters to chose from, but in most cases you'll be limited to 1 or 2 at best for the streamer.

 

[goat76]

But my whole point there was in response to @mike70 and simply to show that if you limit your source to streaming, many albums have a large variety of masters to chose from, but in most cases you'll be limited to 1 or 2 at best for the streamer.

That may be true for people who mostly listen to "historical" mainstream acts, artists who have flooded the market with different versions of the same album. When it comes to smaller bands in alternative genres (which I tend to listen to), there is often no more than one single version released, and IF that can be found on a streaming platform at all, you can be completely sure it will be that same version.

For the current mainstream listening crowd who listen to the latest popular artists, you can be sure that the same squashed version is on the CD version, if it exists, as the one found on the streaming platform. BUT, if it exist a vinyl version, then it's actually a possibility that's the least dynamically squashed version of them all.

But I agree with you, everyone should manage their own music library, and not put all their trust in streaming platforms, which have to change their library whenever an artist is not available or decides to pull their music from the service. I have my music library on a NAS and an additional backup hard disk, music I have ripped a long time ago from all my CDs, and things I've bought from Bandcamp.
For my most special favorite artists, I have, since last summer, started a vinyl collection, and I have found there is something - something I like about the sound added by the vinyl playback (I don't know what that is). But most of my listening is still streaming from either my NAS or from Tidal.

 

[Bob from Florida]

For my most special favorite artists, I have, since last summer, started a vinyl collection, and I have found there is something - something I like about the sound added by the vinyl playback (I don't know what that is).

From my experience, that “something” may well be the total “experience” of the process of vinyl playback. The basic assumption here is that the playback equipment has been optimized within the owner’s budget. By optimized, I mean a “good” turntable/arm/phono preamp that works with the chosen cartridge. At least a Shibata profile diamond - VM95SH for example. Choosing the album, placing it on the turntable, dropping the needle, and taking a seat to listen. This is somehow more satisfying than using a remote or smart device to “surf” through selections before a song or entire album finishes. When using Volumio to pick recordings from my NAS, I am seemingly always looking for that “next” song instead of immersion in the current artist/song. The extra “work” vinyl playback imposes, keeps me in my seat for the whole album side.

 

[aagstn]

That may be true for people who mostly listen to "historical" mainstream acts, artists who have flooded the market with different versions of the same album. When it comes to smaller bands in alternative genres (which I tend to listen to), there is often no more than one single version released, and IF that can be found on a streaming platform at all, you can be completely sure it will be that same version.

This is a good point. I have a number of smaller bands I have loved for years and there is never more than a single release for their album. In recent years the only physical version is vinyl so I buy that on Bandcamp to also get the digital files for streaming. Those bands haven't released a CD in ten years. I don't think they can sell enough to make it worth the effort, but are able to do a run of a thousand vinyl records and sell those out.

 

[goat76]

This is a good point. I have a number of smaller bands I have loved for years and there is never more than a single release for their album. In recent years the only physical version is vinyl so I buy that on Bandcamp to also get the digital files for streaming. Those bands haven't released a CD in ten years. I don't think they can sell enough to make it worth the effort, but are able to do a run of a thousand vinyl records and sell those out.

For many bands in the "underground" scene (if that's still a term), I think vinyl has generally always been seen as the true and main physical format, no matter how the general popularity trend has changed over the years for the format. And as the vinyl version is more often than not the main format, the digital release is usually not as dynamically squashed as the mainstream top-chart-aiming artists' releases usually are.

 

[aagstn]

For many bands in the "underground" scene (if that's still a term), I think vinyl has generally always been seen as the true and main physical format, no matter how the general popularity trend has changed over the years for the format. And as the vinyl version is more often than not the main format, the digital release is usually not as dynamically squashed as the mainstream top-chart-aiming artists' releases usually are.

I remember the days when a lot of bands we liked could only release singles on 7 inch records. So we would collect those. Many of the records I still have from the 80's and 90's are 7 inch records we bought at their shows. Good times.

 

[Sal1950]

I have found there is something - something I like about the sound added by the vinyl playback (I don't know what that is).

There's mostly a very easy answer to why vinyl sounds the way it does, it's all in the mastering and the technical weaknesses of vinyl to capture what's on the original master.

What is Mastering for Vinyl?

Mastering for vinyl is the process of creating a separate master that can be cut into a vinyl record without added unwanted distortion.

www.sageaudio.com

And as the vinyl version is more often than not the main format, the digital release is usually not as dynamically squashed as the mainstream top-chart-aiming artists' releases usually are.

I don't know much of anything about the (underground) but if you refer back to my post on Dire Straits you will see that the most dynamic releases are still the CD's.
You just have to do your homework first.

The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

Yep There's always been numerous trade-offs in vinyl composition, needle profiles, tracking pressure & skating force, etc, etc etc that come into play. They effect the wear of both the playing surface and needle itself. Like most all other 100 year old technologies, they have all sort of issues...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[goat76]

There's mostly a very easy answer to why vinyl sounds the way it does, it's all in the mastering and the technical weaknesses of vinyl to capture what's on the original master.

What is Mastering for Vinyl?

Mastering for vinyl is the process of creating a separate master that can be cut into a vinyl record without added unwanted distortion.

www.sageaudio.com

I have a pretty deep knowledge of recording, mixing, and mastering music, and I can tell you that "that something" has most likely nothing to do with any specific mastering processing. I mostly suspect it has to do with some harmonic distortion, probably happening in the playback.

I don't know much of anything about the (underground) but if you refer back to my post on Dire Straits you will see that the most dynamic releases are still the CD's.
You just have to do your homework first.

The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

Yep There's always been numerous trade-offs in vinyl composition, needle profiles, tracking pressure & skating force, etc, etc etc that come into play. They effect the wear of both the playing surface and needle itself. Like most all other 100 year old technologies, they have all sort of issues...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I already know that the original CD version of Brothers In Arms is the most dynamic, but I wasn't referring to that. If you read what I wrote again, I was talking about the alternative music scene, where vinyl has pretty much always been seen as the serious main physical format, and the digital release has mostly been seen as an "easy-to-share" and "throw-around" format. And thanks to the vinyl being the main format, the digital releases that follow often have most of the dynamics preserved for these smaller genres of music. At least that's the observation I have seen after having analyzed a lot of music files for the last 12 years or so.

 

[Sal1950]

I have a pretty deep knowledge of recording, mixing, and mastering music, and I can tell you that "that something" has most likely nothing to do with any specific mastering processing. I mostly suspect it has to do with some harmonic distortion, probably happening in the playback.

Well if you know how mastering for vinyl is done, then you understand the procedures listed on the website I posted is done to try and reduce the distortion in vinyls playback. So yes, you are correct, much of the "sound" of vinyl is due to the distortion it introduces into the sound of the original master, whether analog or digital. Now if you really prefer the sound of that distortion over a clean representation of the master, be my guess. I prefer that thing called High Fidelity.