spiral scratch
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There's plenty of stylus upgrade options for that cart if you like the sound, you might want to look into that first.
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The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion
- Thread starter Bob from Florida
- Start date
There's plenty of stylus upgrade options for that cart if you like the sound, you might want to look into that first.
Thanks, curious what you would change about the speakers in the room? They are on stands with tweeters about at ear level and an equalateral triangle from the listening position (10 feet apart). The speakers on the floor were old and not being used if that wasn't clear.
Thanks, I assumed cart would be the way to go. Thanks for the suggestions. I like the speakers, and they are a Dennis Murphy design and sound great with Audyssey and Dynamic EQ.the best bang for the bucks are ... transducers.That means ... speakers or cartridge.
If you don't want to replace your speakers, upgrade your cartridge.
The Shure is a decent cartridge, but not a high level cartridge ...you can add a jico SAS stylus to the M97 and that goes from an elliptical cut to a fine line, a very good upgrade.
Or ... go to the best priced microline cartridges ... the AT vm95ml / vm540ml / vm740ml ... depending on your budget.
Use the bellari preamp in the 120pF configuration and the lower capacitance cables per foot you can find, as the blue jeans LC1 or something with mogami cables.
Then talk me again
Any reason to do a stylus and not just a new cart? Newb at this obviously.
Cote Dazur
Addicted to Fun and Learning
In my experience, speaker placement is the most determinent factor. For those who need to share the living space, the compromise are big and the result might be pleasant but not great and that is ok, but no new anything will fix much. In your case it looks like you have a dedicated music room, so you can seat and have speaker where they will yield the optimum result.
Putting the tweeter at hears hight is great, equilateral triangle is a good start, but where you seat in the specific room and how far the speaker are from any boundaries, dealing with early reflections with absorber and diffusion will give spectacular results with what you already have.
A new cartridge, or any other small step will not fix the present limitations of your room and positioning and past the short time when the little improvements are notice, you will quickly go back to what you are presently hearing.
From the picture you posted i can see that you probably can do much better.
spiral scratch
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Convenience for one, you don't have to install a new cartridge. If the cartridge is well matched to your arm then it's better than trying to find something else that may or may not work. You can stylus swap, so keep the cheaper stylus for the chewed up LPs and use the nicer one for your treasured objects and critical listenening. Of course you can do that with other MM carts, but if you like the Shure sound, which many do, then just roll with it. I don't know the M97xE specifically but Shure likely made several stylus options for that body. The stylus and diamond cut are often the big part of the sound usually leading to more clarity and refinement, of course within the limits of that particular body and generator. The Jico SAS that mike70 mentioned is likely top of the heap for aftermarket, but you can find other options. Not everyone loves the Jico SAS sound on every cartridge. LP Gear sells a variant called Vivid Line that offers a line contact profile. The folks at audiokarma or vinylengine will likely have a pretty involved thread there about stytus options for a M97xE. Some of the Shure bodies are backwards compatible so you can use a bunch of other stylii for them. Many find the stylus upgrade option the best bang for buck and fun to play around with. You can find them cheaper used or NOS too if you don't mind waiting for a good deal and going that route.
Cote Dazur
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I have a question about the sort of turntable that seem to be used in majority by ASR forum members. My perception, it may be totally wrong, is that a strong majority play records on fairly basic Japanese turntables, equipped with basic MM cartridges. From my perspective having end up many (more than 30) years ago with a fairly high end TT, arm and cartridge because I had demos in stores convincing me their was a vast sound improvement from the high end tables compare to basic models, it surprise me that so many here are using such a basic model.
Is it because those people have seen measurement that convince them basic is just as good as high end, like we can see for Dacs for example?
Is it because they compared and did not hear a better sound from high end TT?
Is it because they consider records to be so inferior to digital source than trying to get better performance is a waste of time and energy?
Or any other reason?
To me mechanical aspect of the TT and my past experience comparing back then has me totally convinced of the superiority of high end TT, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around what seem to be happening with most TT user here (ASR).
Is it because those people have seen measurement that convince them basic is just as good as high end, like we can see for Dacs for example?
Is it because they compared and did not hear a better sound from high end TT?
Is it because they consider records to be so inferior to digital source than trying to get better performance is a waste of time and energy?
Or any other reason?
To me mechanical aspect of the TT and my past experience comparing back then has me totally convinced of the superiority of high end TT, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around what seem to be happening with most TT user here (ASR).
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I have a basic one because I’ve seen nothing convincing me I would get better sound from a “better” one. Certainly not from a “better” TT itself. Mine is specced to +-0.015% wow and flutter and measures to about .05% well below my perception threshold. I haven’t seen any data that its isolation is noticeably poorer than more expensive ones, nor that material of platter matters sonically. I believe that cartridges could make a noticeable difference, but I haven’t been able to find measurements of mine to compare it to whatever “upgrade” I’m looking at. So that would be just throwing money at a guess. Stylus wise, Shibata would be a significant improvement (even if not sonically), assuming my cartridge is aligned correctly, but none are made for my cartridge anyway. Nor do I have access to most if not all tone-arm ”upgrades” but again it doesn’t really matter since I haen’t seen data showing improvement in any case.
So in the end it comes down to the fact that my TT produces really, really good sound. I have a 45 single by Cabernet Voltaire from 1983. There is one pop on the lead in track on both sides, but other than that is dead quiet. I can’t hear the noise floor at all unless I turn it way up and put my head against the speaker (which is very uncomfortable). I should A/B it, but my guess is that difference from digital is noticeable but small. My new vinyl (except one Radiohead promo pressing) is pretty much the same, barring static issues. So I’m just not convinced that throwing money at it is going to make much difference. I would love to be proved wrong though.
JP
Major Contributor
Only a few ‘tables were specd that low. What is it?
Cote Dazur
Addicted to Fun and Learning
JP
Major Contributor
0.025% C5221. From built-in FG they spec 0.012%. The trick with FG measurements is that there is no standard.
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Cote Dazur
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Anyone here has experience using Shaknspin to get data on how a TT is performing?
OP
Bob from Florida
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Between work and home stuff I was unable to get to running the demagnetize test until today. I had intended on getting 2 graphs of the pink noise before demagnetizing and 2 after. Yet , somehow I managed to discard one of the pre demagnetize graphs. Anyway, below is what I captured. Hi Fi News test record track 4 side 1 - left channel pink noise played for all pink noise captures. Position of iPhone and volume not changed for all captures, all noise sources inside house shut off - except refrigerator. First 2 pictures are of the setup and rest are labeled - thanks to iPencil. Cartridge used was a Hana SL that had never been demagnetized on a Clearaudio Performance DC with Satisfy carbon arm. Amplification- ifi Zen Phono set for 60 db 1K load using balanced output into Luxman 507 integrated into Ref 3a Grand Veena speakers.
Nothing stands out from this measurement technique. No listening tests were done, just these spectrum captures which don‘t show anything significant to my eyes. The members suggesting electrical testing were most likely correct. Unfortunately, I don’t have that capability at the moment.
Nothing stands out from this measurement technique. No listening tests were done, just these spectrum captures which don‘t show anything significant to my eyes. The members suggesting electrical testing were most likely correct. Unfortunately, I don’t have that capability at the moment.
Cote Dazur
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I will take advantage to share here my feelings about listening to my turntable. Recordings and speaker placement and where you sit in relation to both the speakers and in the room is the most important. But then when you have that tackled, in my experience, which is about listening to music while doing nothing else, listening to my records on my turntable is almost always more involving and satisfactory that listening to my CD’s or to my music on my hard drive. Nothing wrong with he digital source, in some aspect it is “cleaner” sounding, instrument separation is excellent, dynamic is very good, so why do I prefer my records? My records are more homogenous, they make sense, the sound stage when i close my eyes is like being somewhere else, the music grabs me, atmosphere are more intense, sounds are all there, all instrument are clearly divided but at the same time they play together in harmony.
I know, most here think digital is better, what is measured here on ASR shows digital as superior, so why do I feel closer to the music, more entertained, inspired to concentrate and intensively listening to music, not doing anything else, for hours, when using my turntable and much less when listening to digital source?
A lot here, newer to records use, what are to me “cheap” direct drive TT which average MM cartridge. The belief is that better turntable do not measure better therefore do not give better music. Is it the same issue as with digital, can it be more to it that just what we measure? When I did my TT discovery in the 80’s, à better TT, arm, cartridge, sounded and played better music than the direct drive with cheap arms and MM cartridge, no measurement, but my ears were convinced.
I am pretty sure a lot here will not agree or even not understand what my post is about, but if only one or 2, who are sharing my experience feel less isolated, in this forum, I will be happy.
I know, most here think digital is better, what is measured here on ASR shows digital as superior, so why do I feel closer to the music, more entertained, inspired to concentrate and intensively listening to music, not doing anything else, for hours, when using my turntable and much less when listening to digital source?
A lot here, newer to records use, what are to me “cheap” direct drive TT which average MM cartridge. The belief is that better turntable do not measure better therefore do not give better music. Is it the same issue as with digital, can it be more to it that just what we measure? When I did my TT discovery in the 80’s, à better TT, arm, cartridge, sounded and played better music than the direct drive with cheap arms and MM cartridge, no measurement, but my ears were convinced.
I am pretty sure a lot here will not agree or even not understand what my post is about, but if only one or 2, who are sharing my experience feel less isolated, in this forum, I will be happy.
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A little late but anyway:
A MM cartridges only component that "wears out" is the stylus - the "generator" has basically an unlimited life. So replacing the stylus, provides you with a "brand new" cartridge.
Replacing the stylus, can also be done without in any way changing the alignment of the cartridge/arm - so you avoid all that geometric messing about....but...
The key thing to a cartridges performance is ultimately the cantilever - it has a greater impact on the "sound" than almost anything else - it's mass will drive the effective moving mass of the whole system, it's rigidity will drive the flexing and associated distortions, etc...
The cartridge itself, and whether it is MM or MC or MI or whatever has a lesser influence.
The needle type and shape (and quality) - has an important influence on the ability to properly "read" worn records, as well as the lifetime of the needle (a line contact design will have more than double the effective lifetime than a conical/spherical or eliptical stylus)
The Shure family bodies came in 3 basic groups - each of which had for the most part interchangeable styli within their group...
The Square bottom group (M70 family), the V Bottom mass market group (M97 family) and the premium V bottom group (V15V family)
The M97 and V15V groups look very similar, but the stylus "shank" - the bit that gets inserted in the body - is much narrower, more precise... for the V15V's - the M97's have a "fatter" shank.
The V15V family use laminated poles on the internals of their generator bodies, which reduces eddy current associated distortion.
The M97 family use standard (unlaminated) poles
Currently the best stylus you can get for any of the Shure bodies is the Jico SAS - an exotic low mass high rigidity cantilever, with a very extended line contact needle on the end.
To get an idea of the comparative performance potential - you should do a search for other cartridges that combine a Boron, Ruby, or Saphire cantilever with a line contact needle ..... the Jico needle remains excellent value for money.
Having said that - performance can differ quite substantially between needles - due to cantilever differences - and that is why you will also find that within those generator families there is quite some variation between the different models in terms of their inductance and impedance/resistance.
On a high inductance design (AKA: MM) - the circuit formed by the resistive and capacitive load, along with the inductance, provides a substantial EQ effect, which combines with the cantilever behaviour to (in theory, on a properly designed complete cartridge system) - provide a reasonably flat frequency response.
When using a non-original stylus - you therefore potentially alter the voicing of the cartridge substantially - given that you maintain the "standard" loading.
Something that is often overlooked by many people is that the manufacturers were intentionally vague with their loading recommendations - Shure typically suggested an R load of "up to 70k ohm" and a wide range of capacitance values as well.
Varying R & C with a given cartridge, can completely change its voicing.
One of the joys and pains of using MM's - is this wide variability.
Now that original styli are long gone for many of these cartridges, the voicing of the cartridge system is up to the individual.
By frequenting ebay and similar places, you can often pick up old Shure bodies from the V bottom family, and build up a small set of bodies with differing inductances (variable 1)...
Getting an MM phono stage with adjustable loading is key to getting them right.... R should be able to range from around 20K to 70k ohm, and there should be as little capacitance in the system as possible so as to allow for adjustment of total C from around 100pf to 500pf.
Typically an MM phono stage with spare RCA sockets for loading plugs is the easiest way - you can then make up "loading plugs" for various R & C loads...
The other thing of interest that most people don't realise, is that there is substantial manufacturing variation on styli even from the same manufacturer... and that the loading adjustment allows one to compensate for this variation.
With MC's there is very little ability to EQ / Adjust / Voice the setup - you get what you get - and you get the manufacturers voicing (for better, or worse)
For the most part that means an MC will sound like it's cantilever - and with the very best cantilevers - that implies a flat frequency response (as the resonances, distortions are pushed into the 30kHz+ frequency range, outside the audible range) - but for anything with a standard aluminium cantilever, and even the heavier versions of the ruby/saphire/boron cantilevers, the resonance frequencies will be in the 12kHz to 19kHz range - and will affect the sound (will to some degree become the "signature" of that cartridge!).
I have examples of most of the range of V bottom M series and V15 series cartridges.... I recommend them highly, in combination with the Jico SAS.
In the mid 80's I compared many turntables and cartridges... wore out many shoes visiting the various dealers and shows.
A friend and I were both shopping for relatively high end turntables at the time.... with matching cartridges... we visited dealers together and discussed what we heard, compared notes etc...
Our shortlist ended up with Revox B795, direct drive, linear tracking, ultra low mass, and Michell Gyrodeck - belt drive, standard arm, mid mass.
After much listening, and back and forth I chose the Revox and he chose the Michell. (I still have the Revox, the Michell is still available new.)
I did not find DD or BD to be a determinant of performance either then or now, with the best of either school being excellent - but I did then and still do now prefer a low mass arm / high compliance cartridge setup, preferably linear tracking - this has become a rare breed - with most of todays cartridges firmly in the mid to low compliance range - and arms to match.
Turntables require high quality engineering - it is the nature of the beast - but in the 70's and 80's, mass production brought some of that capability within reach of most people's budgets... the TOTL turntables from companies like Technics, Sony, JVC, Revox, Thorens etc... were then and are to this day, competitive with very high end boutique hand made turntables.
For more than 20 years the market shrank to almost exclusively boutique hand made turntables - that meant no DD's - as that technology did not lend itself to that style of manufacturing. The engineering skills and techniques that are available to a small boutique manufacturer came to dominate the high end... and the low/mid market came to be dominated by what is possible at those pricepoints using the same techniques.
It is good to see Technics return to manufacturing, and the development of high precision 3D manufacturing - as this will (and has) broadened the range and variety of excellent designs we see.
I would love to see high compliance cartridges and low mass arms make a comeback too!
JP
Major Contributor
While it may be the best, the SAS is a dumpster fire on the V15V, IMO.
For the most part MCs are anything but flat. Even Technics with the 305MCMK2 that came out at the same time as the 100CMK4 isn’t there. Sure, they exist, but few and far between IME.
JP
Major Contributor
I don't - don't have a V15V-P so I've never played with it. I *may* have read somewhere at some point that the VN5MR can be modified to fit, or I may have just made that up. May be worth a google canoe trip or two to find out.
I'm more in to finding original styli for the vintage gems that I have, and some day Dr. Elastomer (@SIY) and I will get together on bringing the perished ones back to life.
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