The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[goat76]

Why the spacer? The arm has VTA adjustment...

I read the manual, and it clearly states that the spacer should be used for a cartridge with a height of 16 mm or less. The height of the AT33PTG/II is exactly 16 mm.
The height control position 2 is used, which makes the tonearm horizontally flat while a record is playing.

 

[Thomas_A]

I just want to say thank you all for the help and guidance you have given me in this thread. I have now bought a Technics 1200GR2 turntable and a Audio-Technica AT33PTG/II cartridge, and fine tuned everything. Today I have had the first play and it sounds really great!

View attachment 477013

Welcome to the new old world!

 

[goat76]

Is there any truth in cartridge break-in and vinyl record break-in?

I’m only at the beginning stage of using my turntable, but I found it sounds pretty good right from the start. If anything, I may have noticed a small change for the better the second time I’ve played a new record, as if the grooves needed one play before they settle, or something like that.

When it comes to the possible need for cartridge break-in, I recorded two songs now at the beginning, and will record the same ones later on to see if I can hear a difference when comparing the files.

So, what is your take on this?

 

[rdenney]

Cartridges might break in and vinyl wears out from use eventually. But I would call both processes breaking down rather than breaking in, though with both it’s a slow process with care. Enjoy both while they are new.

Rick “whose stuff is fully broken in—yeah—that’s what it is” Denney

 

[Thomas_A]

Is there any truth in cartridge break-in and vinyl record break-in?

I’m only at the beginning stage of using my turntable, but I found it sounds pretty good right from the start. If anything, I may have noticed a small change for the better the second time I’ve played a new record, as if the grooves needed one play before they settle, or something like that.

When it comes to the possible need for cartridge break-in, I recorded two songs now at the beginning, and will record the same ones later on to see if I can hear a difference when comparing the files.

So, what is your take on this?

I would agree with @rdenney . There is some polishing of the stylus going on which is part of wear. Some might call the first time a break-in period but I wouldn’t. I have measured some difference after cleaning new records and there are some micrographs of grooves showing some changes after first plays. It could be some grit removed or wear. It seems though that the stylus do remove ”something” from the groove of new records during the first plays.

Important is to keep records and stylii clean.

 

[goat76]

I would agree with @rdenney . There is some polishing of the stylus going on which is part of wear. Some might call the first time a break-in period but I wouldn’t. I have measured some difference after cleaning new records and there are some micrographs of grooves showing some changes after first plays. It could be some grit removed or wear. It seems though that the stylus do remove ”something” from the groove of new records during the first plays.

Important is to keep records and stylii clean.

Eventually, I will likely have a look at a HumminGuru, but as of now, I only use a regular brush before every play, and I also bought one small brush made for cleaning the stylus.

It will still be interesting to compare the recordings before and after some wear and tear of the cartridge, but I don’t expect hearing any differences.
Interesting that also you have noticed differences in sound from the first play of a new record, maybe there is some truth to that.

 

[mike70]

don't forget that the cartridge isn't an electronic chip ... it's an electromechanic device, so, some stuff have a "break in", as an example, the rubber at the end of the cantilever.
there are many moving parts reading tiny vibrations, so "break in" exists, yes.

record wear? obviously exists, but i have records with decades and ... let me say, with clean records and "fine line" styluses (lesser pressure on the groove with the same VTF), i never listened any "wear" effect.
there're some experiments with tens of plays (40-50) without any sound degradation.

 

[Thomas_A]

Eventually, I will likely have a look at a HumminGuru, but as of now, I only use a regular brush before every play, and I also bought one small brush made for cleaning the stylus.

It will still be interesting to compare the recordings before and after some wear and tear of the cartridge, but I don’t expect hearing any differences.
Interesting that also you have noticed differences in sound from the first play of a new record, maybe there is some truth to that.

As long as records are new and you take care of them, I would say dry clean with brush is surficient. It is when you start collect used records that wet cleaning is needed.

 

[goat76]

As long as records are new and you take care of them, I would say dry clean with brush is surficient. It is when you start collect used records that wet cleaning is needed.

All my records are new, so I was very surprised to see fingerprints all over one of them. Strange, has that happened to you?

And talking about brushes, the one I got for free with the purchase of the turntable leaves a lot of hair on the record. Avoid Dynavox SP130, which seems to be the same as the Audio-Technica AT6013a. I ordered a new one from Danish AM, hope it's better.

 

[goat76]

I have a couple of beginner questions.

If a cartridge has a recommended tracking force range of 1.8g to 2.2g, is there a general rule depending on the tonearm weight where within that weight range should work the best? Let's say the tonearm is considered lightweight, is it generally better aiming for a higher tracking force?

The second question is about test records. I would like one with anti-skating test tracks and have read about a record called “HiFi News”, but that one seems pretty old now so maybe there are better options available now. Do you have any suggestions?

 

[mike70]

All my records are new, so I was very surprised to see fingerprints all over one of them. Strange, has that happened to you?

And talking about brushes, the one I got for free with the purchase of the turntable leaves a lot of hair on the record. Avoid Dynavox SP130, which seems to be the same as the Audio-Technica AT6013a. I ordered a new one from Danish AM, hope it's better.

it's not strange, record factories aren't hospitals.
i clean every record i bought, new or used ... and i change the internal sleeve for anti static rice paper / hdp ones (mofi style).

 

[mike70]

I have a couple of beginner questions.

If a cartridge has a recommended tracking force range of 1.8g to 2.2g, is there a general rule depending on the tonearm weight where within that weight range should work the best? Let's say the tonearm is considered lightweight, is it generally better aiming for a higher tracking force?

The second question is about test records. I would like one with anti-skating test tracks and have read about a record called “HiFi News”, but that one seems pretty old now so maybe there are better options available now. Do you have any suggestions?

the cartridge have a force range and a recommended VTF, Audio Technica generally have the 1.8 - 2.2 gr and the recommended 2.0 grams (i have AT with 2.0 / 2.1)
it's better to stay in the high part of the range ... mistracking for light VTF is much worst than high VTF, generates groove damage and sound distortion.

anti skating setting? ... welcome to the rabbit hole ... so many "experts" and opinions flying, normally all of them are wrong.
check that:

the best i finded? the Peter Ledermann way: https://www.sound-smith.com/do-i-need-anti-skating

 

[Bob from Florida]

I have a couple of beginner questions.

If a cartridge has a recommended tracking force range of 1.8g to 2.2g, is there a general rule depending on the tonearm weight where within that weight range should work the best? Let's say the tonearm is considered lightweight, is it generally better aiming for a higher tracking force?

The second question is about test records. I would like one with anti-skating test tracks and have read about a record called “HiFi News”, but that one seems pretty old now so maybe there are better options available now. Do you have any suggestions?

Set tracking force midrange - 2 grams in your example. Heavier is less damaging than too light, but stay within the range specified. Anti-skate requirements increase with increased force. At a high enough tracking force you will exceed available anti-skate settings. I have several test records - including Hi Fi News - but no longer utilize anti-skate bias tracks. I use the Frank Schroder technique detailed by Soundsmith here.

https://www.sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-adjust-anti-skating-my-cartridge

It works quite well at setting anti-skate correctly.

Edit - Looks like @mike70 said the same thing and I missed it. Now you have Soundsmith squared!

 

[mike70]

Set tracking force midrange - 2 grams in your example. Heavier is less damaging than too light, but stay within the range specified. Anti-skate requirements increase with increased force. At a high enough tracking force you will exceed available anti-skate settings. I have several test records - including Hi Fi News - but no longer utilize anti-skate bias tracks. I use the Frank Schroder technique detailed by Soundsmith here.

https://www.sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-adjust-anti-skating-my-cartridge

It works quite well at setting anti-skate correctly.

Edit - Looks like @mike70 said the same thing and I missed it. Now you have Soundsmith squared!

that's ok ... is the best method i finded in my vinyl way (since many decades), suposedly the finer method is the Wally Tools, but ... too much work for me
also, the results in the Parks video are astonishing ... almost any method have different results.

 

[Thomas_A]

All my records are new, so I was very surprised to see fingerprints all over one of them. Strange, has that happened to you?

And talking about brushes, the one I got for free with the purchase of the turntable leaves a lot of hair on the record. Avoid Dynavox SP130, which seems to be the same as the Audio-Technica AT6013a. I ordered a new one from Danish AM, hope it's better.

Not really seen that. They can have a bit of dust though.

 

[Thomas_A]

I have a couple of beginner questions.

If a cartridge has a recommended tracking force range of 1.8g to 2.2g, is there a general rule depending on the tonearm weight where within that weight range should work the best? Let's say the tonearm is considered lightweight, is it generally better aiming for a higher tracking force?

The second question is about test records. I would like one with anti-skating test tracks and have read about a record called “HiFi News”, but that one seems pretty old now so maybe there are better options available now. Do you have any suggestions?

There are some data in threads at ASR.

tracking force: there is always a range du to variations. The safest choice is in the middle of the range. With test records one could go for the lowest total cross-talk.
Antiskate: I find the blank surface test method sufficient. Even if it sets antiskate a bit lower than for a modulated groove. Others have different opinions though.

 

[sergeauckland]

I clean all records, new or old with my vacuum RCM before playing. New records have Mould Release Agent to remove as well as dust, so all newly purchased records get cleaned.

S

 

[lini]

Is there any truth in cartridge break-in and vinyl record break-in?

Often enough a sliight improvement in trackability can be measured after ~ 20 hours. So there would appear to be a bit of cantilever suspension break-in. But quite a few ATs already track very well right out of the box, so that the improvement might not be noticed.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[spiral scratch]

If a cartridge has a recommended tracking force range of 1.8g to 2.2g, is there a general rule depending on the tonearm weight where within that weight range should work the best? Let's say the tonearm is considered lightweight, is it generally better aiming for a higher tracking force?

The second question is about test records. I would like one with anti-skating test tracks and have read about a record called “HiFi News”, but that one seems pretty old now so maybe there are better options available now. Do you have any suggestions?

I tend to install a new cartridge at the maximum tracking force and leave it there for the first 20-30 hours of play time, then dial it back to the middle somewhere. I also play the first few sides with my older worn LPs to polish the diamond a bit. The arm weight doesn't relate to the tracking force per se, but the common wisdom is to match a light arm with a cartridge that tracks light as well. It's not written is stone, and if your arm provides additional damping it tends to open up the possibility for different cartridges to run well. Some people think damping arms is a no-no too, but the other people who seem to know what they're talking about tend to think it helps. It's a real mess of contrarians out there, but at least you can find reliable info on this forum.

There's a bunch of discussion on test LPs on the cartridge measurement thread. I don't think there's one that does everything properly, so you kind of need a couple to get all the measurements done, some are better than others. The Hi-Fi News LP is ranked at the bottom due to poor workmanship. The test LPs can be helpful to set up azimuth, if your headshell/arm doesn't rotate on it's axis I wouldn't worry about it. The recommendations to use the deadwax for anti-skate are good enough for most.

 

[Cote Dazur]

As my main preamp is at the preamp hospital I cannot use my main turntable as it use a MC cartridge.
I have a second turntable, Technics SL 2D, that has not been used for years, just installed a AT VM95E, as my phono on the amp on my second system can only do MM.
The install is super easy, the TT works perfectly.
Having access to my LP on this second system in my smaller second (non dedicated) listening room, brought me back a few years, 2 decades really. Even if it is my second room, the speakers are positioned (quasy) perfectly, both for sound and image.
Of course, sound quality and musicality, is utterly dependent on the recording, then room positioning of both speakers (2) and the speakers relation to the room, but, call it nostalgia, call it subjective earring, one thing you cannot measure is how much fun I am having picking up random albums in my (medium large) album library, put it on the table and rediscover (as I am getting to that age) my own music.
Money well spent on that cartridge.
I understand many on this site have ditched vinyl, I understand why, but I cannot refrain from thinking that they are missing out, there is something about listening to LP’s, that no digital source can give me, even if CD is almost as romantic, it is still no really cutting it.
Long live the LP’s.