The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Bob from Florida]

i don't think we can elaborate a "thesis" about cleaning ... because the "hypothesis" doesn't have a clear aspect: record status.

what i said (in my experience) i also saw it in the opinions here: used records improvements can be from low to exponential and brand new records usually are low, normally in noise.
I have used vacuum / cavitation ... and now i use manual cleaning (after reading the PAC book, Precision Aqueous Cleaning) with the same (at least) or better results.
I recommend to read that book and to experiment, here we got that the cheapest method is the better

When you get that "dustball" attached to your stylus - after the carbon brush - you realize that a wet vacuum cleaner is required...

 

[mike70]

When you get that "dustball" attached to your stylus - after the carbon brush - you realize that a wet vacuum cleaner is required...

... and to clean the stylus is another good habit

 

[MattHooper]

Recent measurements showed no change in frequency response when testing US on a new record. Used records however usually ends up with more clarity especially in the highs. But the effect is variable depending on how much grit and particles that are stuck. So I would not worry about the surfactant.
View attachment 460330

Thanks.

As I said, I don’t worry about anymore, but that’s interesting nonetheless.

As to the effect of my Degritter, it ranges depending on the record from “ no difference or virtually no difference in sound after a wash” to “ subtle difference” all the way through “ obvious improvement” with the occasional “ miracle restoration.”

I remember early on I had a record, I can’t remember where I got it, but it was in terrible condition visually and sonically. Sonically it had so much gritty noise I may as well have pulled it from a dumpster. It was just a write off. But I gave it a double cleaning anyway and when I played it afterwards, I couldn’t believe my ears. It literally sounded closer to a brand new record. It got rid of almost all of the noise! Blew my mind.

Of course, I wish I had more of those experiences. But I wash every record if only to extend the life of my stylus keeping it cleaner, and I also simply love how used records come out of the process, looking as shiny and new as if they came hot off the presses.

 

[Mart68]

I bought a batch of records that were covered in grit and brick dust. When I took them out the sleeves you could tip the crud out of the sleeve, there was that much of it. Records were coated in it. Inner and outer sleeves were in perfect condition so I thought I would try to restore the discs.

I used PVA glue coating, let it dry, peel it off like peeling the skin off a rice pudding. Then an extended clean on Moth wet/vacuum machine. They all came up clean and played flawlessly. Some of those are now worth £30 to £40, I paid £1 each. I think most people would have just binned them.

 

[sergeauckland]

I bought a batch of records that were covered in grit and brick dust. When I took them out the sleeves you could tip the crud out of the sleeve, there was that much of it. Records were coated in it. Inner and outer sleeves were in perfect condition so I thought I would try to restore the discs.

I used PVA glue coating, let it dry, peel it off like peeling the skin off a rice pudding. Then an extended clean on Moth wet/vacuum machine. They all came up clean and played flawlessly. Some of those are now worth £30 to £40, I paid £1 each. I think most people would have just binned them.

I had a similar experience with a box of LPs that had been flood damaged. Mostly the sleeves disintegrated and the LPs themselves were mouldy and filthy. Cleaned them a couple of times with my Moth RCM, and they're quite playable. Managed to download and print some of the cover art and glued this to the plain outer sleeve, so identifiable.

As a general observation, a vacuum RCM will remove any removable dirt, albeit may take a couple of goes. It can't do anything about wear or damage, but a line-contact stylus again generally will make a worn LP playable, and slight damage that causes the LP to skip can be corrected using a matchstick to straighten out the damage leaving a click rather than a skip. Underbiasing the arm also helps with skipping records as then the tendency is to lean inwards rather than outwards.

I have questioned why I bother, but recovering something otherwise thrown away gives me a weird satisfaction.

S.

 

[Mart68]

I have questioned why I bother, but recovering something otherwise thrown away gives me a weird satisfaction.

S.

Not so weird I don't think. You can't beat the sense of achievement.

I did question why I was spending so much time and effort - plus £200 a pop on replacement styli - when I could just buy the CD for a few pounds and leave all that behind. Which is what I did, in the end. I do sort of miss the non-sonic aspects of vinyl though.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Used records however usually ends up with more clarity especially in the highs.

I found with used records a separate scrub stage also helps. Rather than copy the entire post here, here is the link to that post which has close up pictures of the grooves before and after cleaning.

 

[DSJR]

How the heck does that tiny belt survive for more than ten seconds trying to accelerate that enormous chunk of aluminum?

A weight like that on my TD-166 and the subplatter would be "resting on the bump stops", as we used to say to describe a massively overloaded pickup truck.

I think the little twist-turn clamps like those found on the 1/4" spindles on my Teac open-reel deck would accomplish the same thing and not require the services of an overhead track crane.

Rick "too far?" Denney

Apologies for repeating myself. The Thorens bearing is NOT a long lasting one if the deck has been used regularly for fifty years. My TD160bmk2 (armless version) was well used with SME arm for twenty years or so before being replaced by a Gyrodek (nothing to do with me) and on receipt (with all the Crown stuff I still have and some TDL speakers now long-ago sold) and the main bearing thrust plate had a sizeable 'dimple' worn into it, the rounded main spindle tip looking fresh still. As said bearing is pressed into the sub-chassis, I got round the issue by easing a 1mm thick ptfe disc into the well which restored things and barely affected platter ride height. I'd also suggest (again?) that the suspension and sub-chassis rigidity on th3 160 family models weren't ever designed for heavy additional weights.

 

[DSJR]

I was sure I heard a difference when I watched the video.
The audio files were provided by the video's author. I downloaded them and tried discern differences using Foobar2000 A/B/X. I was unsuccessful, 9/16 correct - full results attached below.

Total: 9/16
p-value: 0.4018 (40.18%)

I was curious if there were actual differences between the files.
View attachment 459784

There are, a few dB at 20Hz. Odd since if this was addressing warp, that is around 8 Hz. Unclear what resonance is changing. The rest is remarkably matched.

Perhaps I can hear this now that I know what to listen for. Not many systems reproduce this low, and it will be difficult to hear even on one that goes low enough.

Sighted and expectation bias rules us with an iron fist. I see so many of the YouTube comments that claim more bass with the clamp, for example:
View attachment 459780
Despite the fact that there is less bass, even if not likely audible.

Music selection is going to be critical to evaluate this effect. Likely Pink Noise is more ideal.
Would be interesting to see if anybody can identify the sound in an actual test.
I'll try again tonight, full 20 runs, with no distractions, and some idea of what I am listening for.

Typical late reply from me with apologies - but can you see the absolute junk below 20Hz here, clearly (I believe) showing the arm-cartridge resonance? The 'music' kind of finishes below 40 - 50Hz by the looks of it...

 

[Bob from Florida]

Picked up a set of Triton Audio Neolev feet to put under the stock feet on my SL1300.

NeoLev - Triton Audio

NeoLev is a magnetic levitation damper. NeoLev will eliminate direct coupling and lower related distortion. They work particularly well under nearfield monitors or hi-fi speakers, although the effect is clearly audible with any device they are placed under. Neolevs are sold in a set of 4 pieces.

www.tritonaudio.com

Same diameter as the stock feet and add an inch overall height to the turntable. Bit of a pain to get in place under the stock feet, but once there you don’t need to fiddle with them. Not complete isolation due to the center alignment shaft between the 2 halves. No scientific measurements, but wrapping ones knuckles on the rack with needle on record - no spinning, just listening for vibrations - results in noticeably less vibrations picked up by the cartridge. Not claiming any audible improvements without some measurements, but I am really enjoying the playback on this table!
Adding picture of Neolev feet in use.

 

[Power Pop 23]

With the renewed interest in vinyl playback, I am a little surprised select breakfast food companies have not revived a 'format' of my youth - the 'cereal box record'

Remembering the Era of Cereal Box Records | Alan Cross

A billion years ago, my sister developed an unhealthy (and thankfully brief) obsession with Bobby Sherman, a second-tier teen idol from California. While

www.ajournalofmusicalthings.com

 

[Newman]

Picked up a set of Triton Audio Neolev feet to put under the stock feet on my SL1300.

I cut small squares from a sheet of acoustic underlay:-

Stacking two pads for 2 cm lift. Does a great job.

From memory I think it is called AngelStep. An industrial product meant to underlay carpeting in corridors between apartments etc, and isolate dwellings from people walking along corridors.

cheers

 

[Bob from Florida]

I cut small squares from a sheet of acoustic underlay:-View attachment 470602
Stacking two pads for 2 cm lift. Does a great job.

From memory I think it is called AngelStep. An industrial product meant to underlay carpeting in corridors between apartments etc, and isolate dwellings from people walking along corridors.

cheers

Functional, but would never pass WAF in these parts….

 

[mike70]

Functional, but would never pass WAF in these parts….

.. 100% true (what is that crap there?)

 

[Newman]

WAF test?

Fixed!

 

[Bob from Florida]

WAF test?

View attachment 470656

Fixed!

Nah, wrong color

 

[mustang_flht]

I use under my SL-1210G a Spider Norstone from tempered glass, (L x H x P) : 470 x 15 x 420 mm and 7kg, I use feet 3M Bumpon SJ5017. 3M Hemisphere are ideal for vibration isolation and damping: the hemispherical shape is ideal for this application! Do not use the other shapes

Bumpon Hemisphere shape = High noise-absorption, Increased absorptionenergy

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b5005035174/

3M's R&D is much more efficient than the Hi-Fi artisans: the result is of a high level for a fairly low product purchase price.



When I tap on the furniture with my finger, the noise through the cell placed on the record when stopped is almost zero.

 

[DVinylfan]

There's a new kid in town.
Full disclosure, I use a Gravity One record weight, and enjoy the sense of, I guess luxury, that watching it spin a little asymmetrically atop my vinyl brings.
Allegedly, it greatly improves the sound of records due to the unique nature of its construction and the ability of its diverse and composite materials to capture and channel away harmful disc-borne vibrations.
Which effect is exactly what I heard when I first used it, after reading the blurb. Occasionally I forget to put it on and when I do realise that and put it on halfway through a disc, I'm not sure I notice any difference, at least at the low volume levels I habitually use.
I didn't buy this thing, it was gifted to me by a retailer as compensation for a horrendously over schedule delivery of my turntable.
I won't buy a Gravity Two, but lots of people will.
For each of them there are different expectations and a different experience awaits.
Audio is such a great hobby
The multiple imperfections of the vinyl medium amplify the joys latent within it.

Origin Live Gravity Two Record Weight | Analog Planet https://share.google/SgV5nO6D30GKcxymk

 

[mike70]

There's a new kid in town.
Full disclosure, I use a Gravity One record weight, and enjoy the sense of, I guess luxury, that watching it spin a little asymmetrically atop my vinyl brings.
Allegedly, it greatly improves the sound of records due to the unique nature of its construction and the ability of its diverse and composite materials to capture and channel away harmful disc-borne vibrations.
Which effect is exactly what I heard when I first used it, after reading the blurb. Occasionally I forget to put it on and when I do realise that and put it on halfway through a disc, I'm not sure I notice any difference, at least at the low volume levels I habitually use.
I didn't buy this thing, it was gifted to me by a retailer as compensation for a horrendously over schedule delivery of my turntable.
I won't buy a Gravity Two, but lots of people will.
For each of them there are different expectations and a different experience awaits.
Audio is such a great hobby
The multiple imperfections of the vinyl medium amplify the joys latent within it.

Origin Live Gravity Two Record Weight | Analog Planet https://share.google/SgV5nO6D30GKcxymk

you need to digitilize a track with and without the record weight and then use an ABX comparator to check if there's a real improvement.
i used the Foobar 2000 audio player (with the ABX plugin) and it's a fantastic tool to check for real differences or ... to check for brain tricks

 

[Bob from Florida]

Here’s an interesting question to throw out here. We know total capacitance from headshell to phone preamp in conjunction with MM cartridges inductance produces a resonance peak that is in the audio band if not well matched. I purchased an inexpensive Tweezer style LCR meter that measures at 3 different frequencies- 100 Hz, 1Khz, and 10 Khz, with 1 and 10 Khz suitable for picofarad measurements. Measuring my stock tonearm plus cable that came with the Technics SL1300G yields 170 pf at 1Khz and 140 pf at 10Khz. Waxwing is 50 pf, so totals are 220 pf and 190 pf respectively. Calculations with AT VM95SH are below - 485 ohms DCR, 550 mh, and 47K loading. Considering the peak is above 10 Khz, it seems to me the 140 pf number would be more accurate when considering what to do about cable capacitance. Thoughts are requested.