The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Frank Dernie]

It sounds like you enjoy the music you are playing. That's the whole point. I may not think that how you are doing it is the best. But that doesn't matter. Nothing matters other than you like what you're doing.

Clamp that shit. it sounds better???? hell yeah.

My first music was albums. Styx. Boston. Hendrix. Vinyl has it's place. It's not all about objective best.

No - but this thread is about the objectively better, not best.

I presume you haven't read the objective of this thread?

We know LPs aren't objectively top quality, and do not need another thread with peoiple saying so over and over again. We have hundreds of messages along those lines - maybe thousands - over the years.

The objective here is to look into objectively improving an LP playing system.
Pretty well all digital is objectively audibly perfect, leaving out eccentrically imagined devices with no reconstruction filter or similar.

LPs OTOH are on the verge of not being quite good enough or actually being audibly unacceptable so anything we can do to find what makes it technically better is worthwhile.

IMHO all tests of electronics do is check if a design is broken and if it has the features we want and looks like being reliable and inexpensive - performance differences are either inaudible or infinitesimally small when we look at them objectively.

I find speaker threads the most interesting, because they not only vary widely in themselves but also in room interactions.

This thread is also interesting to me because I worked in the business decades ago and have 50 years of design, research and tweaking experience, but I actually almost never listen to LPs any more - only when I want to listen to a particular recording - so I am under no illusions, just think anybody wanting to actually improve their LP playing kit need somewhere sane to discuss it

A lot of what I see in magazines is technically naive or just wrong.

 

[Mart68]

Did anybody give this short video a listen?

I didn't. But I have a record weight someone gave me which I did try at the time. Yes it changes the sound. I didn't like what it did. I was also concerned about stress on the bearing. The deck - SL1200 - was not designed to be used with a weight. It's a robust design, but still it concerned me.

 

[Bland_username42069]

It’s very tedious when people come to say that vinyl is objectively worse etc.

That’s great but if I want to listen to something not on streaming services then I need a turntable so I want to know everyone’s ideas and measurements for optimising playback. It’s hardly controversial.

 

[mike70]

It’s very tedious when people come to say that vinyl is objectively worse etc.

That’s great but if I want to listen to something not on streaming services then I need a turntable so I want to know everyone’s ideas and measurements for optimising playback. It’s hardly controversial.

it's a pain the a** for them and for us, i don't understand it.
With an informed decision, you can enjoy the hobby as you like ... i mean, we all know the hassles in vinyl and their limitations, but we use the format anyway.
And we can do that in an objective way, in the "ASR way" ... what's the sin?

 

[Bob from Florida]

it's a pain the a** for them and for us, i don't understand it.
With an informed decision, you can enjoy the hobby as you like ... i mean, we all know the hassles in vinyl and their limitations, but we use the format anyway.
And we can do that in an objective way, in the "ASR way" ... what's the sin?

Most of the time that type of commentary is to get a reaction - trolling. If there is no reaction, then they troll other places. In any event, the moderators have stated their desire to - which is also my objective here - to keep this thread “clean”.

 

[rdenney]

It sounds like you enjoy the music you are playing. That's the whole point. I may not think that how you are doing it is the best. But that doesn't matter. Nothing matters other than you like what you're doing.

Clamp that shit. it sounds better???? hell yeah.

My first music was albums. Styx. Boston. Hendrix. Vinyl has it's place. It's not all about objective best.

With all due respect, could you moderate your language? That's the second post of yours I've read this morning that included an unnecessary and offensive curseword.

Imperfect playback media are precisely where these changes can possibly have an audible effect. Clamping an LP is not at all in the same category as green highlighter on a CD.

There is no need for you to care one way or the other, but if you don't care, why comment?

For the record, I could hear a difference, but I did not have a preference and could not say which I thought was better or more accurate. That would require measurements.

Rick "another forum has a word for this: thread-crapping" Denney

 

[sergeauckland]

It sounds like you enjoy the music you are playing. That's the whole point. I may not think that how you are doing it is the best. But that doesn't matter. Nothing matters other than you like what you're doing.

Clamp that shit. it sounds better???? hell yeah.

My first music was albums. Styx. Boston. Hendrix. Vinyl has it's place. It's not all about objective best.

With all due respect, could you moderate your language? That's the second post of yours I've read this morning that included an unnecessary and offensive curseword.

Imperfect playback media are precisely where these changes can possibly have an audible effect. Clamping an LP is not at all in the same category as green highlighter on a CD.

There is no need for you to care one way or the other, but if you don't care, why comment?

For the record, I could hear a difference, but I did not have a preference and could not say which I thought was better or more accurate. That would require measurements.

Rick "another forum has a word for this: thread-crapping" Denney

Is there a difference?

S.

 

[MAB]

Did anybody give this short video a listen?

I was sure I heard a difference when I watched the video.
The audio files were provided by the video's author. I downloaded them and tried discern differences using Foobar2000 A/B/X. I was unsuccessful, 9/16 correct - full results attached below.

Total: 9/16
p-value: 0.4018 (40.18%)

I was curious if there were actual differences between the files.

There are, a few dB at 20Hz. Odd since if this was addressing warp, that is around 8 Hz. Unclear what resonance is changing. The rest is remarkably matched.

Perhaps I can hear this now that I know what to listen for. Not many systems reproduce this low, and it will be difficult to hear even on one that goes low enough.

Sighted and expectation bias rules us with an iron fist. I see so many of the YouTube comments that claim more bass with the clamp, for example:

Despite the fact that there is less bass, even if not likely audible.

Music selection is going to be critical to evaluate this effect. Likely Pink Noise is more ideal.
Would be interesting to see if anybody can identify the sound in an actual test.
I'll try again tonight, full 20 runs, with no distractions, and some idea of what I am listening for.

 

[Robin L]

I didn't. But I have a record weight someone gave me which I did try at the time. Yes it changes the sound. I didn't like what it did. I was also concerned about stress on the bearing. The deck - SL1200 - was not designed to be used with a weight. It's a robust design, but still it concerned me.

I've used clamps and weights on LPs, to little effect. I think, if one is seeking the best in LP playback, one should be very careful and observant about record purchases and to be sure to have return privileges for defective pressings. I've gone through many thousands of record purchases and have found some LPs where it's easy to find a better replacement and some where the record is inherently defective and there's really nothing that can be done.

 

[Thomas_A]

I was sure I heard a difference when I watched the video.
The audio files were provided by the video's author. I downloaded them and tried discern differences using Foobar2000 A/B/X. I was unsuccessful, 9/16 correct - full results attached below.

Total: 9/16
p-value: 0.4018 (40.18%)

I was curious if there were actual differences between the files.
View attachment 459784

There are, a few dB at 20Hz. Odd since if this was addressing warp, that is around 8 Hz. Unclear what resonance is changing. The rest is remarkably matched.

Perhaps I can hear this now that I know what to listen for. Not many systems reproduce this low, and it will be difficult to hear even on one that goes low enough.

Sighted and expectation bias rules us with an iron fist. I see so many of the YouTube comments that claim more bass with the clamp, for example:
View attachment 459780
Despite the fact that there is less bass, even if not likely audible.

Music selection is going to be critical to evaluate this effect. Likely Pink Noise is more ideal.
Would be interesting to see if anybody can identify the sound in an actual test.
I'll try again tonight, full 20 runs, with no distractions, and some idea of what I am listening for.

If there should be anything audible: A test with a weight should be done with a heavily convex dish-warped record and a steady tone. The problem is that a weight only works on one side of a dish-warped record.

 

[MattHooper]

I was sure I heard a difference when I watched the video.
The audio files were provided by the video's author. I downloaded them and tried discern differences using Foobar2000 A/B/X. I was unsuccessful, 9/16 correct - full results attached below.

Total: 9/16
p-value: 0.4018 (40.18%)

I was curious if there were actual differences between the files.
View attachment 459784

There are, a few dB at 20Hz. Odd since if this was addressing warp, that is around 8 Hz. Unclear what resonance is changing. The rest is remarkably matched.

Perhaps I can hear this now that I know what to listen for. Not many systems reproduce this low, and it will be difficult to hear even on one that goes low enough.

Sighted and expectation bias rules us with an iron fist. I see so many of the YouTube comments that claim more bass with the clamp, for example:
View attachment 459780
Despite the fact that there is less bass, even if not likely audible.

Music selection is going to be critical to evaluate this effect. Likely Pink Noise is more ideal.
Would be interesting to see if anybody can identify the sound in an actual test.
I'll try again tonight, full 20 runs, with no distractions, and some idea of what I am listening for.

Interesting thanks!

I haven’t tried comparing the full files, but at least on the YouTube video switching between the files, there’s a very obvious difference at the time I indicated. I could hear it easily with my eyes closed (so I would have my eyes open for when the clamp was on, close my eyes, and when I thought I heard a change, I’d open my eyes and it was right after when the clamp was taken off. I can still easily hear it with my eyes closed).

 

[Mart68]

I've used clamps and weights on LPs, to little effect. I think, if one is seeking the best in LP playback, one should be very careful and observant about record purchases and to be sure to have return privileges for defective pressings. I've gone through many thousands of record purchases and have found some LPs where it's easy to find a better replacement and some where the record is inherently defective and there's really nothing that can be done.

I don't think I've bought a brand new vinyl record in this century. Possibly it was 1996 when local record shop stopped selling them.

Anything damaged or warped I replaced with the CD. New releases I bought the CD version.

I could not stand warped records even if they played okay.

Around 2012/2013 I toured the country buying used records when they were still cheap (many were £1). All were visually inspected before purchase.
Of those only a handful turned out to be damaged in some invisible way (e.g a first press of 'The Nightfly' with groove damage on two songs).

The person who gave me the weight said that it improved playback, it was not to correct warps. I didn't find it improved the sound although I perceived that it did change it.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I was sure I heard a difference when I watched the video.
The audio files were provided by the video's author. I downloaded them and tried discern differences using Foobar2000 A/B/X. I was unsuccessful, 9/16 correct - full results attached below.

Total: 9/16
p-value: 0.4018 (40.18%)

I was curious if there were actual differences between the files.
View attachment 459784

There are, a few dB at 20Hz. Odd since if this was addressing warp, that is around 8 Hz. Unclear what resonance is changing. The rest is remarkably matched.

Perhaps I can hear this now that I know what to listen for. Not many systems reproduce this low, and it will be difficult to hear even on one that goes low enough.

Sighted and expectation bias rules us with an iron fist. I see so many of the YouTube comments that claim more bass with the clamp, for example:
View attachment 459780
Despite the fact that there is less bass, even if not likely audible.

Music selection is going to be critical to evaluate this effect. Likely Pink Noise is more ideal.
Would be interesting to see if anybody can identify the sound in an actual test.
I'll try again tonight, full 20 runs, with no distractions, and some idea of what I am listening for.

All the cartridge output around resonance and its tail is the cartridge body bouncing on the suspension, not groove modulation. The tiny difference in output around 20Hz is in the edge of the frequency range pickup catridges don't properly work in, so is pretty meaningless/spurious in the area where the vertical stiffness of the record, or its support, is still having an influence on cartridge dynamics, one would probably expect the spurious bounce to be less on a clamped disc.

 

[dr0ss]

Not, one supposes, for the turntables of the TD-166 era.

Rick “unless it comes with stiffer springs” Denney

I don't actually know when these things were first made. I'm told they're OK on the TD160, though I've never tried a puck on mine.

 

[MatrixS2000]

I find a distinct change in the sound of the recording when the clamp is removed at :59

I downloaded the files and measured them at a 2 second window around that time.

Here are the spectrograms (without clamp first). The greyed area is where the next spectrogram will zoom in on. Note that the tracks are not time aligned, hence the shift in the spectrograms.:

Zooming in on that greyed area, (the greyed area is again the next further zoom in):

Final zoom in on the grey highlighted area:

Here are the dynamics for the entire track. Please note that this track has not been declicked and the clicks at the end of the track are impacting the dynamics readings. First here is a spectrogram showing the offending clicks:

For those interested, here are the dynamics with those clicks removed (I did not declick the entire track, only the area indicated):

Phase:

Spectrum:

 

[mike70]

@MatrixS2000 ... in the wav's i sended (phil collins song) ... you finded the difference between them and then EQ the difference in the vm95ml track, right?

 

[MatrixS2000]

Forgot to add the waveform stats:

 

[MatrixS2000]

@MatrixS2000 ... in the wav's i sended (phil collins song) ... you finded the difference between them and then EQ the difference in the vm95ml track, right?

I will have to go back and look later.

 

[MAB]

Interesting thanks!

I haven’t tried comparing the full files, but at least on the YouTube video switching between the files, there’s a very obvious difference at the time I indicated. I could hear it easily with my eyes closed (so I would have my eyes open for when the clamp was on, close my eyes, and when I thought I heard a change, I’d open my eyes and it was right after when the clamp was taken off. I can still easily hear it with my eyes closed).

It's easy to hear the splice in the track in the video. After I watched the video once, I can't un-remember that each time I hear the splice, the clamp was either added or removed. After viewing the video the test is no longer blind for me, unless I am able to somehow forget the sequence of the experiment, which is kinda hard since the first splice is right when Colin Meloy sings the last word in a phrase "Slack", and each subsequent slice is placed at key transitions in the song.

On top of the video not being a blind test, it's hard to impartially judge tone change at a discontinuous part of the song like the last word in a stanza, or the first note of a guitar solo. These splices are in places where the spectral content of the song changes, and are in the worst place to actually evaluate the effect of the clamp. Unclear if this was done accidentally or intentionally to fool the audience. What is clear is the splices are placed at maximally inconvenient places in the song, places where the song is changing, and makes it extremely difficult to evaluate an actual changing in the reproduction gear.

I can't hear the track differences unless I hear the splice. This YouTube videos is a sighted A/B test, masquerading as an A/B/X, which is why people think they are hearing these 'obvious' differences. This is why setting up an experiment that is actually controlled and blind is not so easy.

 

[undeakyetonde]

What??? I didn’t draw the scale values. They are built into Izotope and Izotope scales those values as you zoom in or out of the spectrogram, so the scale values have everything to do with this and are what ensure that the measurements are accurate and completely comparable. Have you ever used Izotope?


The second capture's bass note is wider because the bass note was wider. This is clearly shown if you know how to read the spectrogram.

I meant if software can draw same scale near two spectrograms, it does not automatically mean that you can compare these spectrograms side by side. There are important details to the process.

You clearly do not know how spectrograms are computed and how that can affect their appearance (and interpretation). My goal is not to convince you, my goal is for somebody else reading this not to believe the 'bass note wider' nonsense. This is the end of the conversation.