The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[dlaloum]

Regarding measurements of clamps (Michell type) @Balle Clorin has done it regrding cross-talk:

Fun with vinyl measurements

A fresh crosstalk/azimuth investigation today as I explore AnalogMagic V1, yes the -53db is true, I got repeatable values around -50db I am using a Michell Clamp, it comes with a felt pad to put under the record around the spindle Cartridge is Shure V15-iv with Jico SAS B, Azimuth set by...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Regarding weights they would only work on one side if the record is dish-warped. With random warps an outer ring is needed. Measurements have shown an average lowering of warp noise by 4-6 dB.

But it is a pain to use. I will do a mini review with measurements of the Record Pi within a couple months.

The Michell Clamp is what I use too...

 

[DSJR]

Notts Analogue have a 'graphite' top platter which totally removes the need for a clamp or weight. I used to be able to all but pound a playing record with my knuckles and all that ever came through was a faint tapping sound (try doing that on a springy belt drive with felt mat )

The Dual, as with many decks based on 60s thinking, has a deeply recessed label area and, following thoughts on the expensive 'Ring Mat' which concentrates more on disc centre rather than the edge (other small concerns have similar ideas and apologies for forgetting their names), so I added a CD-R spacer to mine, which fits neatly around the spindle assembly and is easily removed. I swear the record appears better supported if tapped when playing (I don't have dished records here). The main bearing thrust plate on this motor seems to be made of glass or similar and is totally undamaged - just how I want to keep it.

 

[Thomas_A]

The Michell Clamp is what I use too...

I was thinking of getting one, but I do not really want to add these extra things when I use records. I want flat records from start so I will try the Record Pi in those records that I have that are warped. They are not so many though.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Regarding measurements of clamps (Michell type) @Balle Clorin has done it regrding cross-talk:

Fun with vinyl measurements

A fresh crosstalk/azimuth investigation today as I explore AnalogMagic V1, yes the -53db is true, I got repeatable values around -50db I am using a Michell Clamp, it comes with a felt pad to put under the record around the spindle Cartridge is Shure V15-iv with Jico SAS B, Azimuth set by...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Regarding weights they would only work on one side if the record is dish-warped. With random warps an outer ring is needed. Measurements have shown an average lowering of warp noise by 4-6 dB.

But it is a pain to use. I will do a mini review with measurements of the Record Pi within a couple months.

Interesting, thanks for posting.

I don't have many warped records, so the weight and ring did not get much functionality from "flattening" perspective. They were used every time on my Merrill Heirloom - screw down clamp and ring had to be used because of the suspension springs. I continued with the Clearaudio versions - weight and ring - on the Performance DC table. The Technics table only allows for the use of a center clamp or weight - no room or way for a clamping ring due to platter design and clearance. This "simplifies" things - I won't miss the process of putting the ring in place or having low-rider cartridges hit the ring on the first track. The weights are "easy" to use.

 

[Bland_username42069]

So what’s the best solution for edge warp on a 45? As far as I can see there are the following options

1. Vacuum table but I can’t see that doing anything for edge warp.
2. Shure cart with a brush might help ride the warp.
3. Dynavector arm seems good for warp.
4. Some sort of 45 outer ring and raise height of the arm to compensate for the ring
5. Heat flattening which I’m a bit reluctant to use

That’s all the solutions I can think of. I don’t know if it’s not just best to leave record as is rather than trying to fix it and let a Shure cart ride it

 

[sergeauckland]

So what’s the best solution for edge warp on a 45? As far as I can see there are the following options

1. Vacuum table but I can’t see that doing anything for edge warp.
2. Shure cart with a brush might help ride the warp.
3. Dynavector arm seems good for warp.
4. Some sort of 45 outer ring and raise height of the arm to compensate for the ring
5. Heat flattening which I’m a bit reluctant to use

That’s all the solutions I can think of. I don’t know if it’s not just best to leave record as is rather than trying to fix it and let a Shure cart ride it

I've done that reasonably successfully on a couple of warped LPs (not 7" 45s). I used a hair dryer to warm up the vinyl, then placed it between two sheets of warmed glass with something heavy (I used a few books) on top. Left it there for a week, and the record was still warped, but now playable. Repeating the treatment didn't make it noticeably any flatter. Worked with the few LPs that had sharp warps that threw the arm off, and even my Shure cartridge wouldn't track.

S.

 

[Bland_username42069]

I've done that reasonably successfully on a couple of warped LPs (not 7" 45s). I used a hair dryer to warm up the vinyl, then placed it between two sheets of warmed glass with something heavy (I used a few books) on top. Left it there for a week, and the record was still warped, but now playable. Repeating the treatment didn't make it noticeably any flatter. Worked with the few LPs that had sharp warps that threw the arm off, and even my Shure cartridge wouldn't track.

S.

Yes I fear heat might be only option. They all play but it’s a wild ride for the arm

 

[JP]

The mono conversion is quite revealing.

I’m sure. I’ve a list longer than my arm of things that need done before we leave for London on Monday.

 

[Thomas_A]

I’m sure. I’ve a list longer than my arm of things that need done before we leave for London on Monday.

Take it easy and have a good trip! Wimbledon?

 

[undeakyetonde]

The scale is on the right hand side, the scale is graduated and scales as you resize, so it is accurate for both measurements even though the top of the first is slightly higher. Plus this was just an example of the methodology I would use.

The scale values have nothing to do with this - you can draw the same scale near a spectrogram of any parameters.

If you want to compare spectrograms visually, you need to strictly control for window length and hop of the STFT transform - for different recordings they should have the same values in milliseconds. Not doing this is a big flaw in methodology, leading to conclusions like 'wider line = sloppier bass'. Not good.

 

[JP]

Take it easy and have a good trip! Wimbledon?

Wimbledon, hang out in Bath for a couple days with an old friend, and a couple dinners with Friends around London. Oh, also our anniversary. 21 million years.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Oh, also our anniversary. 21 million years.

That's a "long, long, long time"!

 

[MatrixS2000]

The scale values have nothing to do with this - you can draw the same scale near a spectrogram of any parameters.

What??? I didn’t draw the scale values. They are built into Izotope and Izotope scales those values as you zoom in or out of the spectrogram, so the scale values have everything to do with this and are what ensure that the measurements are accurate and completely comparable. Have you ever used Izotope?

If you want to compare spectrograms visually, you need to strictly control for window length and hop of the STFT transform - for different recordings they should have the same values in milliseconds. Not doing this is a big flaw in methodology, leading to conclusions like 'wider line = sloppier bass'. Not good.

The second capture's bass note is wider because the bass note was wider. This is clearly shown if you know how to read the spectrogram.

 

[MattHooper]

In regards to the sonic effect of record weights or clamps, a number of years ago I remember there being a number of YouTube videos displaying the sound of records played with and without the weights/clamps and sometimes the sound changes seemed fairly distinct. (from the vinyl rips.)

With a quick search, I couldn’t find the ones I was thinking of. But I did happen upon this video: a before and after demonstration of the Mitchel Engineering record clamp.

I find a distinct change in the sound of the recording when the clamp is removed at :59

It was easy to hear even with my eyes closed:

Did anybody give this short video a listen?

 

[Nih Noh]

I did. But the last thing I'm gonna accept as valid audio information is a youtube video of a song played on a turntable.

Doesn't matter if it has clamps. That's like putting makeup on a pig. I'm still not gonna kiss it

 

[EJ3]

Did anybody give this short video a listen?

 

[MattHooper]

I did.

Did you hear the difference at the time that I posted?

But the last thing I'm gonna accept as valid audio information is a youtube video of a song played on a turntable.

Why?

I mean, I certainly agree: a YouTube video isn’t going to settle the entire issue of the effect of record clamps.

But presuming that it is as presented, two vinyl rips with without the record clamp, then if there’s a distinct difference at any point with and without the clamp I would think that’s interesting. I mean, why not?

If the difference is enough to survive YouTube compression, that seems to say something.

Doesn't matter if it has clamps. That's like putting makeup on a pig. I'm still not gonna kiss it

What is the pig you’re referring to? Is it a YouTube video or are you casting vinyl itself as a pig that no amount of make up can help?

 

[Nih Noh]

i definitely hear a difference at the timemark you specified, but what does it mean? Anyone can edit video sound. And how am i supposed to tell if it's better on such a crippled system? The whole exercise is kinda fruitless and unprovable.

Yes the pig is vinyl. You've lost the plot if you're searching for fidelity in record clamps.

 

[MattHooper]

i definitely hear a difference at the timemark you specified, but what does it mean?

OK, that’s interesting. Thanks.

To me it just means that the clamp had an effect on the sound which I find interesting.
I have my own impressions as to what that sonic change was in the recording, I don’t know about yours.

Anyone can edit video sound. And how am i supposed to tell if it's better on such a crippled system? The whole exercise is kinda fruitless and unprovable.

If again you mean, how are you supposed to tell if it’s better on a crippled system like vinyl, that seems odd to me because the fact vinyl isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that it can’t sound better or worse. If somebody’s interested in playing records, then they probably want to sound better.

Yes the pig is vinyl. You've lost the plot if you're searching for fidelity in record clamps.

Hey, of course you’re free to have any opinion you want about the sound of vinyl.

I happen not to share that opinion, as I find it sounds quite amazing on my system. I care about sound quality (that pleases me) and so I care about how my vinyl sounds. It can sound worse or better depending on the care I take and I prefer better.

As for record clamps, if they can produce an audible change in the sound, then in principle that change could be towards higher fidelity, or even simply a change one may find more pleasing.

Audiophiles care about sound quality, some of us even care about the sound quality of vinyl, as the discussion in this forum attests. So if there’s a way of
“ improving” the sound - and it’s not like a record clamp is likely to break somebody’s bank account - hey why not use one?

It’s pretty much in the job description of an enthusiast to sweat the little details (as you can see in the constant discussions in this forum… some people sweat certain details, more than others and vice versa). So that’s why the record weight and record clamp discussion came up.

 

[Nih Noh]

It sounds like you enjoy the music you are playing. That's the whole point. I may not think that how you are doing it is the best. But that doesn't matter. Nothing matters other than you like what you're doing.

Clamp that shit. it sounds better???? hell yeah.

My first music was albums. Styx. Boston. Hendrix. Vinyl has it's place. It's not all about objective best.