The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[mike70]

If I understood correctly...you equalized the difference between the cartridges?

 

[MattHooper]

There have also been theories of record slippage on the platter. That one is almost too easy to measure!

That’s one reason why I use the supplied record weight with my turntable.

I’m uncomfortable with how easily the record slides along the surface of the platter and so I can imagine slippage happening.

However, in reality, I highly doubt It’s an issue at all with the turntable. But seeing how the record weight holds the record much more firmly against the platter, it’s a sort of peace of mind thing.

 

[rdenney]

How the heck does that tiny belt survive for more than ten seconds trying to accelerate that enormous chunk of aluminum?

A weight like that on my TD-166 and the subplatter would be "resting on the bump stops", as we used to say to describe a massively overloaded pickup truck.

I think the little twist-turn clamps like those found on the 1/4" spindles on my Teac open-reel deck would accomplish the same thing and not require the services of an overhead track crane.

Rick "too far?" Denney

 

[JP]

Just a thought, mis-tracking is as far as I know related to when the stylus speed is too high, and loose contact with the track. This is why it is a function of tracking force - higher gives lower risk for mis-tracking. The second kind is x-max and the stylus distorts the signal (similar to x-max for speakers). This kind does not really require mis-tracking, even if speed could also make the stylus loose contact with the track. The tracing error does not infer that it leaves the track - it may have constant contact with the groove walls, but it rides over the sharp turns and effectively reduces the HF content. In a sense it has lost contact with the entire groove, but not for speed but for geometrical reasons.

As you say tracking error due to pivoted arms is a different issue; it cannot fix tracing errors (which I see too often as a "putative fix")

When it comes to the distorted Tacet inner groove, is it too high speed making it leave the track, just tracing error or both? Given the sound, I would say the stylus speed is too high. A pure tracing error should just reduce the HF content (?)

Hmm.

I don't think it's purely a matter of velocity. The Tacet record has the same track toward the middle of the record - same amplitude (velocity) but far less likely to cause miss-tracking.

As to tracing errors, this free paper, while not exhaustive, covers most of the bases rather well: https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?elib=22236

 

[MattHooper]

How the heck does that tiny belt survive for more than ten seconds trying to accelerate that enormous chunk of aluminum?

I don’t know. Seems to work though. I haven’t had to change the belt yet after about eight years. (maybe I should have.?)

Transrotor has been a well regarded German turntable manufacturer since 1971, so I’m guessing they know a thing or two.

 

[Bob from Florida]

How the heck does that tiny belt survive for more than ten seconds trying to accelerate that enormous chunk of aluminum?

A weight like that on my TD-166 and the subplatter would be "resting on the bump stops", as we used to say to describe a massively overloaded pickup truck.

I think the little twist-turn clamps like those found on the 1/4" spindles on my Teac open-reel deck would accomplish the same thing and not require the services of an overhead track crane.

Rick "too far?" Denney

The motor is not "high torque", which is why it takes awhile to get up to speed. That way the belt doesn't get overly stretched. High mass platters store energy due to momentum which helps stability. The problem with screw down clamps is the down pressure is different every time you use it. The weights apply the same force every time you use them.

Keep on posting, your posts are always "entertaining"!

 

[undeakyetonde]

I needle dropped a record with and without the weight, then inspected the spectrogram for any changes. It will be very difficult to do null type testing with an analog rip, so all I could do was manual inspection.

This example is for something different, but the basic idea is the same:

Let’s assume the following spectrogram is with the record weight installed:
...


Assuming this spectrogram was recorded with the weight off, any changes should be evident, similar to the differences observed between this spectrogram and the one above:

...

These spectrograms look like they were made using different DFT window lengths. Second spectrogram has lower frequency resolution meaning shorter window. Perhaps due to the setting being in samples and audio files having different sampling rates?

 

[MattHooper]

In regards to the sonic effect of record weights or clamps, a number of years ago I remember there being a number of YouTube videos displaying the sound of records played with and without the weights/clamps and sometimes the sound changes seemed fairly distinct. (from the vinyl rips.)

With a quick search, I couldn’t find the ones I was thinking of. But I did happen upon this video: a before and after demonstration of the Mitchel Engineering record clamp.

I find a distinct change in the sound of the recording when the clamp is removed at :59

It was easy to hear even with my eyes closed:

 

[MattHooper]

The motor is not "high torque", which is why it takes awhile to get up to speed. That way the belt doesn't get overly stretched.

Yes, it’s a very slow gentle start up process once the motor is turned on.

 

[MatrixS2000]

These spectrograms look like they were made using different DFT window lengths. Second spectrogram has lower frequency resolution meaning shorter window. Perhaps due to the setting being in samples and audio files having different sampling rates?

The scale is on the right hand side, the scale is graduated and scales as you resize, so it is accurate for both measurements even though the top of the first is slightly higher. Plus this was just an example of the methodology I would use.

 

[Thomas_A]

Hmm.

I don't think it's purely a matter of velocity. The Tacet record has the same track toward the middle of the record - same amplitude (velocity) but far less likely to cause miss-tracking.

As to tracing errors, this free paper, while not exhaustive, covers most of the bases rather well: https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?elib=22236

A ss-sound from the Tacet inner and outer groove. A lot of 10 kHz power here, but differences at lower f also.

Tracks (1 track vs. inner track):

 

[Thomas_A]

And here is an interesting comparison.

Fricatives outer groove:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Fricatives inner groove:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Fricatives inner groove converted to mono:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

So IGD is pinch effect (as LD and Yosh once said...https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=42300).

 

[rdenney]

Hmm.

I don't think it's purely a matter of velocity. The Tacet record has the same track toward the middle of the record - same amplitude (velocity) but far less likely to cause miss-tracking.

As to tracing errors, this free paper, while not exhaustive, covers most of the bases rather well: https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?elib=22236

The paper you linked was a fun read. I came away from it with the same question the author did: If tracing distortion is that bad (which I do not doubt), then how do records sound so good when the systems that play them are in good form?

I'm going to have a turntable on the bench in a few weeks. Gotta take a look at the distortion from those test-record tones. I may have to drag the Holman preamp back to the bench before I actually install it into my system, just to decode the RIAA curve.

Rick "replacing a couple of caps on the distortion analyzer, though" Denney

 

[MatrixS2000]

I don’t know. Seems to work though. I haven’t had to change the belt yet after about eight years. (maybe I should have.?)

My TT runs on the same principle. Make sure you keep your main bearing well lubricated.

 

[Newman]

The problem with screw down clamps is the down pressure is different every time you use it. The weights apply the same force every time you use them.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. A clear advantage to the weight type while performing a measurement.

OTOH being able to apply a bit more pressure on a record with a visible warp is an advantage for the clamp type, in real world usage.

 

[JP]

And here is an interesting comparison.

Fricatives outer groove:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Fricatives inner groove:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Fricatives inner groove converted to mono:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

So IGD is pinch effect (as LD and Yosh once said...https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=42300).

Pinch is one. Translation loss another, and I think the path of the stylus when the minor radius is close to the groove curvature causes other factors that lead to the stylus losing contact.

Haven’t look at the link yet.

 

[Thomas_A]

Pinch is one. Translation loss another, and I think the path of the stylus when the minor radius is close to the groove curvature causes other factors that lead to the stylus losing contact.

Haven’t look at the link yet.

The mono conversion is quite revealing.

 

[dr0ss]

A weight like that on my TD-166 and the subplatter would be "resting on the bump stops", as we used to say to describe a massively overloaded pickup truck.

The "Stabilizer" that Thorens themselves sold was around 1.2 pounds!

 

[rdenney]

The "Stabilizer" that Thorens themselves sold was around 1.2 pounds!

Not, one supposes, for the turntables of the TD-166 era.

Rick “unless it comes with stiffer springs” Denney

 

[Thomas_A]

Regarding measurements of clamps (Michell type) @Balle Clorin has done it regrding cross-talk:

Fun with vinyl measurements

A fresh crosstalk/azimuth investigation today as I explore AnalogMagic V1, yes the -53db is true, I got repeatable values around -50db I am using a Michell Clamp, it comes with a felt pad to put under the record around the spindle Cartridge is Shure V15-iv with Jico SAS B, Azimuth set by...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Regarding weights they would only work on one side if the record is dish-warped. With random warps an outer ring is needed. Measurements have shown an average lowering of warp noise by 4-6 dB.

But it is a pain to use. I will do a mini review with measurements of the Record Pi within a couple months.