The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Bob from Florida]

One undesirable effect of a heavy clamp is loading the thrust bearing on the turntable which will increase rumble. It will also increase wear, so I've avoided using those types of clamp. Years ago I had a Gyrodec with a reasonably lightweight screw-down clamp. I tried and failed several times to hear whether it made any difference. I've therefore never bothered with a clamp of any sort since.

S

The Statement and the Stillpoints both have decoupling contacts. Sighted listening between the Concept and Statement clamps - which is not reliable - seems to reliably sound "different". I expect to be able to measure a difference if this is "real". If measurements are inconclusive, then I can pay the 15% restocking charge on the Stillpoints and call it a "day".

 

[Bland_username42069]

With respect to the terms "repressed", reissued" and "remastered", I would guess that the differences are incremental. If there is a definition of the terms I would be glad to hear them, but from the wording I would guess that "repressed" means that the records originate from the same lacquer. "Reissued", I would guess it means that there is a new lacquer made from the original tape/source (which surely will introduce differences). I am however not sure if a reissue means that the original also was remastered or EQued in the process (as opposed to remastered, where it certainly means that the source was changed and may include quite large differences from the original).

Reissued can mean anything from taking a copy from an original record to going back to the master tapes, even using a previously remastered reissue as the source of a new reissue. It all depends on whether the tapes even exist and the condition of them.

 

[MatrixS2000]

With respect to the terms "repressed", reissued" and "remastered", I would guess that the differences are incremental. If there is a definition of the terms I would be glad to hear them, but from the wording I would guess that "repressed" means that the records originate from the same lacquer. "Reissued", I would guess it means that there is a new lacquer made from the original tape/source (which surely will introduce differences). I am however not sure if a reissue means that the original also was remastered or EQued in the process (as opposed to remastered, where it certainly means that the source was changed and may include quite large differences from the original).

Agreed, sloppy wording on my part.

 

[MatrixS2000]

tried and failed several times to hear whether it made any difference. I've therefore never bothered with a clamp of any sort since.

S

This was basically my finding when I did my testing - I couldn’t hear or see (via spectrograms) and significant changes. I still use it just because it came with the turntable.

 

[MatrixS2000]

It may well be the inevitable bass inaccuracy inherent in seismic type sensors, ie one of the arm/cartridge assembly is adding more of its resonance tail to the output than the other.
No seismic sensor of this type is accurate below around 2x its natural frequency and it maybe higher, depending on damping level and type.

I will find out once my phono gain stage is completed.

Calculated resonance frequency is 9.2 Hz for system 1.

I silence everything below 15Hz on my needle drops.

 

[rdenney]

I will find out once my phono gain stage is completed.

Calculated resonance frequency is 9.2 Hz for system 1.

I silence everything below 15Hz on my needle drops.

My Holman preamp has an infrasonic filter that slopes down from 20 Hz steeply enough to drop the signal by 30 dB at 4 Hz (18 dB/octave). It's not a brickwall filter in the way a digital filter can be, but it should damp the primary resonance at least.

I don't recall what I calculated for the resonance of the TP11/AT440MLa combination I'm using now on the Thorens (12 Hz comes to mind), but reviews stated the Basik/K9 combination that is on the Linn Axis that is coming to me put it between 8 and 10 Hz.

Rick "seems like a good idea" Denney

 

[MatrixS2000]

^
Here are the original specs for the Whest:

Technical specification

Model No.: PS.30R /PS.30RDT dual mono phonostage
RIAA curve accuracy: 17Hz – 20.5Khz +/- 0.2dB or better
Frequency response: 5Hz – 62Khz +/- 1.0dB

 

[Bob from Florida]

This was basically my finding when I did my testing - I couldn’t hear or see (via spectrograms) and significant changes. I still use it just because it came with the turntable.

How did you test the effect of the weights?

 

[MatrixS2000]

How did you test the effect of the weights?

I needle dropped a record with and without the weight, then inspected the spectrogram for any changes. It will be very difficult to do null type testing with an analog rip, so all I could do was manual inspection.

This example is for something different, but the basic idea is the same:

Let’s assume the following spectrogram is with the record weight installed:

Assuming this spectrogram was recorded with the weight off, any changes should be evident, similar to the differences observed between this spectrogram and the one above:

To be clear, the previous analysis compared two different masterings of the same song. The main point is that I would use a similar approach to identify any differences related to the record weight. The previous comparison shows clear differences, and I would be surprised if we observe anything similar with your recordings, as I did not notice any significant changes when I did my original test. This was also before I had AB Metric enabling me to measure other characteristics too.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I needle dropped a record with and without the weight, then inspected the spectrogram for any changes. It will be very difficult to do null type testing with an analog rip, so all I could do was manual inspection.

This example is for something different, but the basic idea is the same:

Let’s assume the following spectrogram is with the record weight installed:

View attachment 459355


Assuming this spectrogram was recorded with the weight off, any changes should be evident, similar to the differences observed between this spectrogram and the one above:

View attachment 459354

To be clear, the previous analysis compared two different masterings of the same song. The main point is that I would use a similar approach to identify any differences related to the record weight. The previous comparison shows clear differences, and I would be surprised if we observe anything similar with your recordings, as I did not notice any significant changes when I did my original test. This was also before I had AB Metric enabling me to measure other characteristics too.

Thanks for sharing.

I think what I will try is running a sweep 20-20,000 Hertz with the needle on the album without the record spinning with and without weights to see if anything discerning happens related to vibrational energy. Then, try it spinning with and without sweeps and weights on an unmodulated groove. Perhaps something will show up.

 

[mike70]

Thanks for sharing.

I think what I will try is running a sweep 20-20,000 Hertz with the needle on the album without the record spinning with and without weights to see if anything discerning happens related to vibrational energy. Then, try it spinning with and without sweeps and weights on an unmodulated groove. Perhaps something will show up.

good idea!

 

[mike70]

if it's interesting for anyone ... i have the digitalization of the same track with my AT33PTG MC and my VM95ml MM cartridges, trying to check for an audible difference. Both cartridges used in the same turntable (technics 1200 mk7) and they have a microline stylus. The differences are in the MC / MM system, body enclosure (metallic / plastic) and cantilever (boron / aluminum).

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/d7jl...PTG2.wav?rlkey=ijmp3pblpt90b0rdnit1x8tjz&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6itw...95ML.wav?rlkey=etq20e2ekv62lrngieooupzbb&dl=0

the files are WAVs at 24/48, because the Minidsp Flex USB plugin have that quality in my computer and i didn't want to mess with that.

I run the ABX Comparator with Foobar2000 (gain level activated on the plugin) and i can hear an audible difference 90% of times ... if the difference worth 5x price difference, is just personal stuff, at least you can have an informed decision.
that's all.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I will find out once my phono gain stage is completed.

Calculated resonance frequency is 9.2 Hz for system 1.

I silence everything below 15Hz on my needle drops.

15 Hz is really too low for a seismic sensor, 30Hz would probably be safer.
OTOH the boosted bass can be quite appealing...
There is also the linearity of the magnetic circuit, a more linear circuit may (accurately) give more output at bass frequencies simply by staying in the linear part of the circuit.

 

[JP]

In many cases the stylus radius itself is sufficiently small to not suffer from IGD if properly positioned, but at the inner grooves issues with LTA, SRA, Azimuth become exacerbated as the margin of error is reduced due to the higher frequency spacing being substantially reduced at the inner groove.

People with experience on linear trackers vs standard arms (especially standard length arms... and their inherently compromised geometry) can attest to this.

No I do not have measurements (and no longer have an "standard" arm based TT)

There was a discussion of this here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=124057&sid=034ae67aa2c00290896f4a7e4fd5ceee

PS: nothing "resolves" an issue which is completely fundamental to the medium itself.... which is that on the inner grooves the recording is compressed into smaller spaces/distances, requiring more precise cartridge / stylus positioning as well as finer stylus minor radius to replay the recording with minimum distortion...

This constant moving of the goal posts is annoying. Going back to your original statement that I took issue with:

Tracking error and tracing error are separate categories with unique causes, and IGD mechanisms are comprised of tracing errors. Eliminating tracking error cannot eliminate a distortion for which the cause is due to the geometry of how the stylus fits in the groove.

Without a pathological case I think exacerbation of tracing error due to tracking error in to the realm of audibility is a tough sell. The VE thread brings nothing illuminating to the table, though I do agree that it seems a lot of people aren't that sensitive to IGD. Further, I think what most people equate to IGD in terms of audibility is miss-tracking. The Tacet test record has two sets of tracks for this which are great for subjective observation.

I also disagree that "many" styli have sufficiently small minor radii as to not suffer IGD, but I suspect what's being called IGD in this case is what's grossly audible and is likely miss-tracking rather than tracing error.

 

[mike70]

This constant moving of the goal posts is annoying. Going back to your original statement that I took issue with:

Tracking error and tracing error are separate categories with unique causes, and IGD mechanisms are comprised of tracing errors. Eliminating tracking error cannot eliminate a distortion for which the cause is due to the geometry of how the stylus fits in the groove.

Without a pathological case I think exacerbation of tracing error due to tracking error in to the realm of audibility is a tough sell. The VE thread brings nothing illuminating to the table, though I do agree that it seems a lot of people aren't that sensitive to IGD. Further, I think what most people equate to IGD in terms of audibility is miss-tracking. The Tacet test record has two sets of tracks for this which are great for subjective observation.

I also disagree that "many" styli have sufficiently small minor radii as to not suffer IGD, but I suspect what's being called IGD in this case is what's grossly audible and is likely miss-tracking rather than tracing error.

i never hear IGD with rightly adjusted fine line styluses ... only on damaged records, remember that using a worn conical / elliptical stylus is a sure path to groove damage.

 

[MatrixS2000]

if it's interesting for anyone ... i have the digitalization of the same track with my AT33PTG MC and my VM95ml MM cartridges, trying to check for an audible difference. Both cartridges used in the same turntable (technics 1200 mk7) and they have a microline stylus. The differences are in the MC / MM system, body enclosure (metallic / plastic) and cantilever (boron / aluminum).

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/d7jl...PTG2.wav?rlkey=ijmp3pblpt90b0rdnit1x8tjz&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6itw...95ML.wav?rlkey=etq20e2ekv62lrngieooupzbb&dl=0

the files are WAVs at 96/48, because the Minidsp Flex USB plugin have that quality in my computer and i didn't want to mess with that.

I run the ABX Comparator with Foobar2000 (gain level activated on the plugin) and i can hear an audible difference 90% of times ... if the difference worth 5x price difference, is just personal stuff, at least you can have an informed decision.
that's all.

Here are the measurements:

AT33PTG2

ATVM95ML

 

[Thomas_A]

This constant moving of the goal posts is annoying. Going back to your original statement that I took issue with:

Tracking error and tracing error are separate categories with unique causes, and IGD mechanisms are comprised of tracing errors. Eliminating tracking error cannot eliminate a distortion for which the cause is due to the geometry of how the stylus fits in the groove.

Without a pathological case I think exacerbation of tracing error due to tracking error in to the realm of audibility is a tough sell. The VE thread brings nothing illuminating to the table, though I do agree that it seems a lot of people aren't that sensitive to IGD. Further, I think what most people equate to IGD in terms of audibility is miss-tracking. The Tacet test record has two sets of tracks for this which are great for subjective observation.

I also disagree that "many" styli have sufficiently small minor radii as to not suffer IGD, but I suspect what's being called IGD in this case is what's grossly audible and is likely miss-tracking rather than tracing error.

Just a thought, mis-tracking is as far as I know related to when the stylus speed is too high, and loose contact with the track. This is why it is a function of tracking force - higher gives lower risk for mis-tracking. The second kind is x-max and the stylus distorts the signal (similar to x-max for speakers). This kind does not really require mis-tracking, even if speed could also make the stylus loose contact with the track. The tracing error does not infer that it leaves the track - it may have constant contact with the groove walls, but it rides over the sharp turns and effectively reduces the HF content. In a sense it has lost contact with the entire groove, but not for speed but for geometrical reasons.

As you say tracking error due to pivoted arms is a different issue; it cannot fix tracing errors (which I see too often as a "putative fix")

When it comes to the distorted Tacet inner groove, is it too high speed making it leave the track, just tracing error or both? Given the sound, I would say the stylus speed is too high. A pure tracing error should just reduce the HF content (?)

 

[JP]

I run the ABX Comparator with Foobar2000 (gain level activated on the plugin) and i can hear an audible difference 90% of times ... if the difference worth 5x price difference, is just personal stuff, at least you can have an informed decision.
that's all.

Try them now: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qudu...DLMN.zip?rlkey=oijto423zbjacvzeliypl840t&dl=0

 

[MatrixS2000]

OTOH the boosted bass can be quite appealing...

For sure, this is why I EQ all my needle drops. They sound too thin without that lower end. I can help fix the low end (as shown earlier with the Fleetwood Mac example). But I can’t do anything with something like this as the limiter has done its damage:

 

[MatrixS2000]

Try them now: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qudu...DLMN.zip?rlkey=oijto423zbjacvzeliypl840t&dl=0

View attachment 459433

Here are your traces:

AT33PTG2 - JP

ATVM95ML:

Note - not pointing out anything at 13.8K, my cursor was at that point.