The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Thomas_A]

I see the confusion now. I was talking about system 1 and 2, not referring to track numbers but the titles of the files. I numbered them so that there is no confusion. You were listening to the EQ’d track.

Track 1 = System 1
Track 2 = System 2
Track 3 = Thomas’ Rip
Track 4 = System 1 with EQ.

Same result here. File with System 2 has more bass than system 1. No contest here. You EQ variant boost bass and some treble for what I can see.

 

[rdenney]

Have you seen how much even used LP12 platters go for. Some enterprising soul is selling stainless steel platters too - if they weigh more than the stock one, I'd suggest that even a Cirkus bearing couldn't take the extra weight without accelerated wear.

Once upon a time, Thorens decided to do their take on the three-spring suspended sub-chassis idea so well realised in the AR deck (my respect and yeah, love, for this model has grown hugely the longer I've been around). They moved the spring positions around (tut tut) and, where they kind-of got away with it in the TD150, the heavily derived RD11/LP12 extra platter mass and later, greater arm physical mass, totally upset the balance and Linn had to do extensive research (we were told) on spring rates under load and so on. Modern LP12s are better aligned and usually fall together well, but not in the 80s. A good running TD150 is an excellent machine to play records on, the multi-material sub-chassis actually works well and it looks (and 'sounds' hehehe) even better in an LP12 plinth, which it fits pretty much exactly.

Anyway, good luck with the Axis. if the arm is a Basik Plus, the counterweight used to be a very firm friction fit as you screwed it in and out. After a few years, the decoupling cylinder can turn to mush and the only cure is to find some silicon tube the right diameter, cut to length, re-fit the insert and off you go. There 'used' to be a sonic benefit in not having the counterweight freely spinning as some of them do today. My own Basik Plus is a halfway house last time I used it. If the arm is an Akito (made of metallic plasticine we felt ), fix the deck and run for the hills... Motors seem to last okay i think and the faults I discovered on ageing ones were main board related. The image below was nicked from this site discussing a repair which may or may not be useful -

Linn Axis (of evil) repair

andydoz.blogspot.com

View attachment 458502

I read Andy Doz's article already. His videos are useful, though it pains me to seem him trying to do precision soldering work with his tremor. I have essential tremor problems also that affects the activities I love the most, so I feel for him deeply. He listed the capacitors, and I tried to order replacements. Fuggedaboutit. Those axial filter caps are unobtainium, but there is no space available for vertically oriented radial caps. So, you have to fold a radial cap over on one of its leads so that it sits on its side, and insulate at least the lead that's running around it to the other through hole.

So I bought a kit from Valhalla Electronics in Merrie Olde England, and it should arrive next week (or next year). They sourced the caps from a Supertech in Taiwan, who doesn't list them so they must have been a special order for a bigger batch. They include a thermistor as an overcurrent protector to replace the 47-ohm resistor just above the fuse, which may be a straight current-limiting resistor. I found a home-made schematic on a forum that showed that resistor inline with the fuse, but I don't see that resistor at all in the Linn schematic, so whatever. Valhalla presents the thermistor as a protection device, which a PTC Thermistor will do--increase resistance as it heats up with too much current, which will reduce voltage and current. With 115V input, it uses zeners to regulate incoming high voltage.

Valhalla also claims to rebuild motors, though with some obvious caveats. And they refurbish circuit boards, but unless the motor is bad I can do that.

The arm is a "Basik" but which version I do not now recall. I was with my friend when he bought the turntable new, I think at Audio Concepts in Dallas, but there a couple of options that memory does not distinguish. He paid about a thousand bucks for it, as I recall, in maybe 1987.

Rick "awaiting arrival in the next week or three" Denney

 

[Thomas_A]

I read Andy Doz's article already. His videos are useful, though it pains me to seem him trying to do precision soldering work with his tremor. I have essential tremor problems also that affects the activities I love the most, so I feel for him deeply. He listed the capacitors, and I tried to order replacements. Fuggedaboutit. Those axial filter caps are unobtainium, but there is no space available for vertically oriented radial caps. So, you have to fold a radial cap over on one of its leads so that it sits on its side, and insulate at least the lead that's running around it to the other through hole.

Rick "awaiting arrival in the next week or three" Denney

What axial capacitors do you refer to? These kinds?

RS PRO 47μF Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitor 250V dc, Axial, Through Hole | RS

se.rs-online.com

RS PRO 33μF Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitor 350V dc, Axial, Through Hole | RS

se.rs-online.com

 

[rdenney]

What axial capacitors do you refer to? These kinds?

RS PRO 47μF Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitor 250V dc, Axial, Through Hole | RS

se.rs-online.com

RS PRO 33μF Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitor 350V dc, Axial, Through Hole | RS

se.rs-online.com

I didn't think to go to RS, but the choices I see on the U.S. site (which is still more than Digikey or Mouser--where I have accounts--had in stock) were 85C-rated and look to be rated for 1000 hours at that temp. The Supertech ones I bought were 105C-rated and for 2000 hours at that temp. These are available individually on Amazon, but I just don't want to buy electronic components on Amazon because of the counterfeiting that goes on there. The curated kit from Valhalla won't be counterfeit and frankly it wasn't that expensive given that I'm only doing one board.

When I filtered on 47 uF, 350V, 105C, and axial, I get nothing even at RS. Likewise 33 uF, 450V, 105C, axial. Yes, I wanted higher temperature and voltage ratings compared to the originals, of course--not worth the trouble to put the same kind of caps as what failed, even if they failed after a long time. The factory caps would be Nichicon or Panasonic--good quality capacitors as electrolytics go.

But it's also a problem that the Axis has no on-off power switch and the caps cook, so I'll plug this into one of the switched receptacles of the Holman preamp, so that it won't have power unless I'm using the system. That was a beef I had with the B&K preamp--because of its outboard power supply, it also did not have true power switch.

Rick "paid £22 for a kit with all the capacitors plus the thermistor" Denney

 

[Thomas_A]

I didn't think to go to RS, but the choices I see on the U.S. site (which is still more than Digikey or Mouser--where I have accounts--had in stock) were 85C-rated and look to be rated for 1000 hours at that temp. The Supertech ones I bought were 105C-rated and for 2000 hours at that temp. These are available individually on Amazon, but I just don't want to buy electronic components on Amazon because of the counterfeiting that goes on there. The curated kit from Valhalla won't be counterfeit and frankly it wasn't that expensive given that I'm only doing one board.

When I filtered on 47 uF, 350V, 105C, and axial, I get nothing even at RS. Likewise 33 uF, 450V, 105C, axial. Yes, I wanted higher temperature and voltage ratings compared to the originals, of course--not worth the trouble to put the same kind of caps as what failed, even if they failed after a long time. The factory caps would be Nichicon or Panasonic--good quality capacitors as electrolytics go.

But it's also a problem that the Axis has no on-off power switch and the caps cook, so I'll plug this into one of the switched receptacles of the Holman preamp, so that it won't have power unless I'm using the system. That was a beef I had with the B&K preamp--because of its outboard power supply, it also did not have true power switch.

Rick "paid £22 for a kit with all the capacitors plus the thermistor" Denney

It seems so on RS US sites. A bit strange they are so rare.

 

[DSJR]

The arm is a "Basik" but which version I do not now recall. I was with my friend when he bought the turntable new, I think at Audio Concepts in Dallas, but there a couple of options that memory does not distinguish. He paid about a thousand bucks for it, as I recall, in maybe 1987.

Rick "awaiting arrival in the next week or three" Denney

The Basik LVX with detachable headshell is workable, but I'd add some stud-loc into the joint where the arm pipe goes into the headshell socket as this is a weakness. The Basik Plus (fixed shell) is sturdier and it's really the counterweight looseness which will affect perceived performance.

 

[MatrixS2000]

File with System 2 has more bass than system 1.

Yes, I showed that earlier. System 1 has about 3dB less bass from the peak I was pointing to. That is what sparked the RIAA move to digital.

You EQ variant boost bass and some treble for what I can see.

A lot more than just that…here are screen captures of all the changes:

And the last change was to defeat the maximizer module (not shown since its defeated, you can just make out a portion of it on the right in the chain) and add clip gain to bring the levels up.

 

[dlaloum]

There are and given my background in noise and vibration research including on the design and manufacture of record players some of them are a bit of a mystery, technically.
Particularly since I know the strengths and weaknesses of seismic sensors - which is what a record player is, essentially.
My favourite arm is the Goldmund T3f, not perfect but with the worst of the shortcomings of a tangential arm (high lateral effective mass) resolved, though it isn't alone in that..

I believe (from memory) that the Goldmund is a close relative of the Rabco...?

 

[dlaloum]

I find all of those interesting, along with my:
Technics SL-M3 (linear tracking, Titanium Nitride tone arm)

the SL-M3 and the SL10 are technically excellent linear trackers, which are so well sorted, and easy to use, that they make the genre boring...

Much like a CD player, they just do their stuff, do it well, and do it without fuss.

Their absence from my list of "interesting arms" may simply be due to their no fuss, no fancies execution - I respect them, but find them boring!
(I also have a thing about damping... and they do lack that feature)

 

[Frank Dernie]

I believe (from memory) that the Goldmund is a close relative of the Rabco...?

I have read that but I have only seen photos of a Rabco arm. The servo tracking mechanism looks very similar but not the arm itself.
The biggest problem with most linear tracking arm designs is the lateral effective mass is high, meaning excitation by warps and the cartridge working in the non-linear part of its range that leads to inaccurate bass performance from linear trackers. The Goldmund avoids this by using a pivoting arm so effective mass is the same vertically as horizontally. The control system is a bit crude and slow given its age, but still gives less tracking error than other pivoted arms.

 

[Frank Dernie]

(I also have a thing about damping... and they do lack that feature)

Damping is a double edged sword.
Depending whether it is viscous or using hysteresis its influence on frequency response and handling differ but it always reduces accuracy at higher frequencies because it "short circuits" the suspension.

Ideally, for audio performance, there would be minimum damping because no audio frequencies would excite the resonance, as long as it is low enough (similar for record player chassis suspension) but in the real world there are knocks and handling both of which excite the resonance and "don't feel right" so damping is added.
In an arm damping like the Cranfield patented trough is scientifically correct. Damping in the cartridge is needed but always worse for performance, damping at the arm pivot is OK but not really in the correct place.
Ideally damping should be between mass and modulation really meaning the only "correctly" from a physics/engineering POV damping is that in the Shure damper brush, with the Cranfield trough second, arm pivot damping third but all have down sides too.

With perfectly flat records and no nervousness about unexpected handling the most accurate audio would come from a cartridge with minimal damping used on a turntable with undamped isolation down to 5Hz in all 6 degrees of freedom.
Such a design does not exist AFAIK and if it did would be criticised for being odd to use

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Ideally damping should be between mass and modulation really meaning the only "correctly" from a physics/engineering POV damping is that in the Shure damper brush, with the Cranfield trough second, arm pivot damping third but all have down sides too.

Current setup (although the stylus is very long in the tooth and I can't justify getting a retip)

 

[thewas]

Current setup (although the stylus is very long in the tooth and I can't justify getting a retip)

View attachment 458684

Hope that paint job is not from the manufacturer?

 

[DSJR]

Current setup (although the stylus is very long in the tooth and I can't justify getting a retip)

View attachment 458684

That bloody Decca NEEDS a Decca-Pod type device to hold the tin-can body

A long passed engineer showed us in the late 70s that the plane of these add-on dampers isn't ideal, as the point of 'damping' should actually be directly next to the stylus itself. The Shure damper was the nearest and the Elite as shown a bit too far and so darned clumsy in use (I loved the deck and the sound quality it achieved from vinyl, but to use I loathed it frankly! When Deccas went awry, Max T went to a Dynavector 17D I recall - and then compared the result with a cheap Philips CD player playing the same recording, this showing him and those of us with open minds, how good 'CD red Book' could be (I liked Max T a lot, a real character).

 

[MaxwellsEq]

That bloody Decca NEEDS a Decca-Pod type device to hold the tin-can body

View attachment 458690

A long passed engineer showed us in the late 70s that the plane of these add-on dampers isn't ideal, as the point of 'damping' should actually be directly next to the stylus itself. The Shure damper was the nearest and the Elite as shown a bit too far and so darned clumsy in use (I loved the deck and the sound quality it achieved from vinyl, but to use I loathed it frankly! When Deccas went awry, Max T went to a Dynavector 17D I recall - and then compared the result with a cheap Philips CD player playing the same recording, this showing him and those of us with open minds, how good 'CD red Book' could be (I liked Max T a lot, a real character).

I had mixed experience with the deccapod (or whatever it was called). In the end I opted for the original plastic holder (although this one is a 4-wire version - I also have a 3-wire version on a Decca purple). I felt, although never measured it, that the extra compliance of the bendy plastic holder improved tracking a bit.

The Rock + Decca was the closest I ever got to master tape quality (although it's a dim light by comparison). There's no question in my mind that Red Book digital is better in all regards with the possible exception of the mistake of going for 44.1 when 48 would have been more sensible.

 

[lini]

the SL-M3 and the SL10 are technically excellent linear trackers, which are so well sorted, and easy to use, that they make the genre boring...

Even the modest, little SL-5 is a pretty decent performer, if equipped with a good cartridge/needle.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: Oh, and hi David, btw!

 

[Thomas_A]

I have read that but I have only seen photos of a Rabco arm. The servo tracking mechanism looks very similar but not the arm itself.
The biggest problem with most linear tracking arm designs is the lateral effective mass is high, meaning the lowest accurate bass frequency they can read from the groove is quite high and since the lateral groove modulation is the sum signal, and for groove continuity channels are usually summed at very low frequencies, that leads to particularly inaccurate bass performance from linear trackers. The Goldmund avoids this by using a pivoting arm so effective mass is the same vertically as horizontally. The control system is a bit crude and slow given its age, but still gives less tracking error than other pivoted arms.

Hm a high lateral mass lowers the fundamental resonance. Why should the highest frequency that can be accurately reproduced from the groove be higher? A light lateral mass should cause the fundamental resonance to be higher and to interfere with the audio signal.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Hope that paint job is not from the manufacturer?

It's the silicon damping fluid, it leaks and gets on everything. It's due a clean

 

[EJ3]

the SL-M3 and the SL10 are technically excellent linear trackers, which are so well sorted, and easy to use, that they make the genre boring...

Much like a CD player, they just do their stuff, do it well, and do it without fuss.

Their absence from my list of "interesting arms" may simply be due to their no fuss, no fancies execution - I respect them, but find them boring!
(I also have a thing about damping... and they do lack that feature)

I like boring! I want it to properly do what it is supposed to do (with maintenance of course [but not a lot]).
For the rest of my life.
That way I can concentrate on learning the newer tech that comes out while embracing the old. (the TT, higher end cassette decks & Real FM is, so far, what I like better.)
But I still want to learn more & use the new. Perhaps recording (ripping) my vinyl, cassettes & Reel to Reel) & "shellacs" to a NAS next year.
As to streaming, ahm, just from my NAS, I need to discover all of what I have collected on vinyl these last 30 years (a lot) that I have yet to listen to on my system, under my conditions. Things that I have heard live or in a club or music at someone's home or on an FM broadcast. Some of it is not music but historical events & family events.
Some is even 9.5 millimeter family videos from the 1930's-now that I just had converted to digital.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Hm a high lateral mass lowers the fundamental resonance. Why should the highest frequency that can be accurately reproduced from the groove be higher? A light lateral mass should cause the fundamental resonance to be higher and to interfere with the audio signal.

Correct, my mistake, the resonance is too low and is affected by warps. I'll correct that.