The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[drewdawg999]

Remember that the Clearaudio Maestro cartridges are just an AT95 with a fancy boron cantilever and ML stylus.

Sadly, I don't know of any high end third party styli for the AT95... I have to assume that Jico must have some sort of agreement with AT not to release higher end styli...

I have the Clearaudio Maestro v2 and it's pretty sweet. Have it on a hot-rodded Rega P3 and always loved the combo, but when I found out about the AT95 guts, I feel I overpaid. I wonder which one's better, the Maestro or the Koetsu Black. I'm guessing most here prefer neutrality, and the Maestro is the better tracker, but something about the Koetsu provides a transcendental experience. It's just what I needed, getting it re-tipped and repaired, rather than getting a more neutral MC, i.e. the AT33PTG/2.

 

[dlaloum]

Do you need a test record to do this? (I don't have one.) Though my gut tells me nothing's wrong, no rumble or hum, hardly any noise at all. Nothing unusual about playback, just beautiful music.

The arm/cartridge resonance is down below 20Hz, and can be triggered by simply playing a blank track, which makes it most "visible" - or play some music, but look at what is happening below 20Hz, in the 5hz to 15hz region - even the basic tracking noise of a blank track will generate a visible peak showing the resonance.

As long as you can record something like the lead out track on a record, and you have the software to break out the frequency spectrum, you should be able to see the resonance quite clearly.

 

[dlaloum]

I have the Clearaudio Maestro v2 and it's pretty sweet. Have it on a hot-rodded Rega P3 and always loved the combo, but when I found out about the AT95 guts, I feel I overpaid. I wonder which one's better, the Maestro or the Koetsu Black. I'm guessing most here prefer neutrality, and the Maestro is the better tracker, but something about the Koetsu provides a transcendental experience. It's just what I needed, getting it re-tipped and repaired, rather than getting a more neutral MC, i.e. the AT33PTG/2.

The Japanese have long had a culture of valuing the subjective experience over objective measurements - which has its own validity.

They make wonderful audio jewelery, and have a range of brands and products that can provide beauty for the listener.

Whether that beauty is an accurate reflection of the original intent of the artist and the mastering engineer, is simply not the point within that cultural perspective. (and who am I to say that is right or wrong!!)

The Koetsu's sit right inside that subjective culture, and have always had a reputation for making beautiful music! - Enjoy!

 

[drewdawg999]

The arm/cartridge resonance is down below 20Hz, and can be triggered by simply playing a blank track, which makes it most "visible" - or play some music, but look at what is happening below 20Hz, in the 5hz to 15hz region - even the basic tracking noise of a blank track will generate a visible peak showing the resonance.

As long as you can record something like the lead out track on a record, and you have the software to break out the frequency spectrum, you should be able to see the resonance quite clearly.

Cool, thanks, I have to try this. I have lots of records with lots of blank space. Will look into some software (have Audacity).

 

[drewdawg999]

The Japanese have long had a culture of valuing the subjective experience over objective measurements - which has its own validity.

They make wonderful audio jewelery, and have a range of brands and products that can provide beauty for the listener.

Whether that beauty is an accurate reflection of the original intent of the artist and the mastering engineer, is simply not the point within that cultural perspective. (and who am I to say that is right or wrong!!)

The Koetsu's sit right inside that subjective culture, and have always had a reputation for making beautiful music! - Enjoy!

Yeah I'm Asian (Chinese), and I admire Japanese artistry and craftsmanship very much, as well as the Samurai spirit. So I view cartridge making as something akin to archery, flower arranging, and calligraphy. Something Zen-like in achieving excellence in these fields. Also love Japanese cinema, not just Kurosawa masterwork, but even pulpy pink films and Pinky Violence have beautiful cinematography. The art of perfectionism through practice is very admirable.

But cartridges are total jewelry, and I love them for it. To have a Koetsu is to possess a legendary piece of musical history, and I believe they strive to stir up emotions with their products. I think it improves even the best masterings with its lush and romantic sound signature. And I do respect the intentions of the mastering engineer, especially when it's Robert Ludwig or Bernie Grundman, but there's nothing wrong with sweetening things up a bit. Is it ever too sweet, too lush, too euphonic? Not for me.

 

[Frank Dernie]

And the audibility of the resulting improvements become progressively more and more debatable...

95% of the improvements are available at relatively "budget" levels of investment

And quite a few of the super expensive arms are technically based on static, rather than dynamic, reasoning and may well be worse than cleverly engineered cheaper ones, but I am decades from having experience of which are cleverly engineered.
Keith Duckworth of Cosworth fame, was the first person to tell me an engineer is somebody who can make for 5 bob what any damned fool could to for a pound. In HiFi the ratio is a lot worse than 4:1

 

[dlaloum]

And quite a few of the super expensive arms are technically based on static, rather than dynamic, reasoning and may well be worse than cleverly engineered cheaper ones, but I am decades from having experience of which are cleverly engineered.
Keith Duckworth of Cosworth fame, was the first person to tell me an engineer is somebody who can make for 5 bob what any damned fool could to for a pound. In HiFi the ratio is a lot worse than 4:1

There are some fascinating arms out there.... a short list of arms I find interesting:

Revox Linear Tracking arm (I have this)
JVC QL-Yxx electro damped arms (and equivalents from Denon, Sony)
Dynavector Tonearm ( https://www.dynavector.com/audio/507mk2.php )
Moerch ( https://www.analogplanet.com/content/analog-corner-100 )
Rabco ST7 linear tracking arm (as per the Harman turntable)
Jelco Oil damped arms (a more "standard" arm - very nicely made with oil damping)

 

[Thomas_A]

The arm/cartridge resonance is down below 20Hz, and can be triggered by simply playing a blank track, which makes it most "visible" - or play some music, but look at what is happening below 20Hz, in the 5hz to 15hz region - even the basic tracking noise of a blank track will generate a visible peak showing the resonance.

As long as you can record something like the lead out track on a record, and you have the software to break out the frequency spectrum, you should be able to see the resonance quite clearly.

A short note though. Using various records the peak can vary some because the exciting resonances on the record are not the same. The Denon test record which has L and R sweep signals 4-100 Hz is more accurate since you can see the resonant peak of the silent channel. But as you noted, a normal record also finds an approximate resonance.

I am not 100 % sure of the audibility, but in theory you get better headroom since the stylus do not need to travel as much (p-p) and you get less FM flutter around resonance and lower IM-distortion. Subjectively, there is a bit more detail especially around heavy bass content, and slightly more dynamic. It is like heavy bass sometimes smear details. I can guess this is related to better timing when the stylus does not bend and stretch as much around resonance, which can be worse around bass beats (see the "Bille Jean Dance").

 

[dweeeeb2]

Here are the traces. I thought I had it on CD but it is actually SACD, but no matter the loudness maximization applied to the SACD can still be seen. I have highlighted the most obvious one in red:

First here are the dynamics traces (vinyl first, followed by the SACD):
View attachment 458325
View attachment 458326

Now if we look at the Loudness trace for both, we can easily see that loudness maximization was applied to the SACD to drive up the volume in the area - and that does not come for free. The cost is loss of DR.:

View attachment 458327

View attachment 458328
This example is actually quite close, they did a good job on the SACD.

Cheers, looks like the site is questionable

 

[MatrixS2000]

Yes, if you can, that would be nice. I would do the test, curious to see if I can hear the difference that the measurement are showing.

Here you go. These are level matched to make comparison easy.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Cheers, looks like the site is questionable

Each of those measurements is completely accurate for that rip and that rip only. You can see proof of this over here - where I ripped the same record on my two different systems and another person ripped a different version on their system and we compared the 3. We ended up with 3 different results, yet each one is completely accurate.

 

[Frank Dernie]

There are some fascinating arms out there.... a short list of arms I find interesting:

Revox Linear Tracking arm (I have this)
JVC QL-Yxx electro damped arms (and equivalents from Denon, Sony)
Dynavector Tonearm ( https://www.dynavector.com/audio/507mk2.php )
Moerch ( https://www.analogplanet.com/content/analog-corner-100 )
Rabco ST7 linear tracking arm (as per the Harman turntable)
Jelco Oil damped arms (a more "standard" arm - very nicely made with oil damping)

There are and given my background in noise and vibration research including on the design and manufacture of record players some of them are a bit of a mystery, technically.
Particularly since I know the strengths and weaknesses of seismic sensors - which is what a record player is, essentially.
My favourite arm is the Goldmund T3f, not perfect but with the worst of the shortcomings of a tangential arm (high lateral effective mass) resolved, though it isn't alone in that..

 

[Frank Dernie]

The arm/cartridge resonance is down below 20Hz, and can be triggered by simply playing a blank track, which makes it most "visible" - or play some music, but look at what is happening below 20Hz, in the 5hz to 15hz region - even the basic tracking noise of a blank track will generate a visible peak showing the resonance.

The arm cartridge resonance is an unavoidable feature of this type of sensor and should not be excited by music because the audible frequency range, and most instruments, are higher. However any impact gives a wide band excitation which will trigger it.

Since all output from a seismic sensor below ~2x its resonant frequency (this accuracy limit also depends slightly on damping) the only technically sensible thing to do is remove all output below 2x resonance in a high pass filter in the phono stage.

Whilst there are other things which can cause the cartridge body not to be dynamically close to stationary at higher frequencies and add spurious output, below this frequency ALL signal is inaccurate in a seismic sensor.

 

[rdenney]

Puts on dealer hat yet again -

Get hold of the cast platter from the TD160 (there are at least two spindle diameters involved here) and replace the skimmed plastic hub of the 166. I've no idea why (and a 440MLa pickup may hide it a bit), but I could never get as good a subjective performance out of a 166 than I could a 160 and back then, the only tonearm difference was thread and weight bias correction as against the magnetic arrangement of the TP16 on the TD160 and that shouldn't affect the sound at all really.

Thorens decks in the UK run slightly fast as most Regas do. I have a thicker third party 'replacement' belt which runs perfectly to speed at 33, but the blasted thing won't ride up to '45' due to added stiffness. GREAT idea to use the proper belt (the Thakker one is identical, or mine was) and change it annually if used a lot.

While the bearing is apart, check the thrust pad at the bottom of the well as they wear noticeably after half a century of fairly regular use (TD150s at least will be knackered by now but can't speak for the 125 which looks similar in both versions). I helped mine with a 1mm thick ptfe disc the right diameter gently eased down - the platter now takes ages to spin down as new ones did (before, this well-loved and used example [replaced by a Gyrodek] came to a stop rather more quickly than I remember new ones doing). I got the recommended DTE-medium oil for the motor bearings and used Mobil Vactra 68 slideway oil for the main bearing, as I was told it's safe on sintered sleeves and very similar to the wonderful stuff Dual used to use. Some Thorens bearings had slop which is a sonic killer and a slightly heavier oil can help here without messing things up.

Apologies for the stuff above, but hope you or any other Thorens owner may find it useful.

Oh, and if it's the stock flat rubber mat of the TD160 family, the EMT style type as used on the TD160 Super and 147 'Jubilee' model is better for record support and I've also used on my ton-up TD160, a heavy Avon rubber mat (suspension adjusted accordingly) and an Oracle squidge-mat I somehow have here. Anything but the flat thing Thorens styled for the TD160 series originally (Colloms measured it as well I seem to recall, while giving the deck a Best Buy regardless).

Aftermarket damping kits may help, as the pressed sub-chassis thuds through to the stylus if disturbed, but they cost a kings ransom sadly.

I've done all that except replacing the sub-platter with an aluminum one. I've considered that, and if I do I may machine a new sub-platter myself. I have a Music Hall Cruise Control that I found very cheaply several years ago, and that solves several problems. One is that I can finely adjust the speed, and the other is that I can change speeds between 33 and 45 electronically by changing the frequency of the power source for the synchronous motor.

Spin-down time without belt on my Thorens is long enough to relieve me of any concern about the bearings.

But the main reason for my post was to get a sense of the relative potential of the Linn Axis versus a TD166 in good working order, as mine is. The Linn's control electronics do the same thing as the Cruise Control. Back in the day, the Linn would have been more highly regarded than the Thorens, but my suspicions is the Japanese-made Basik tone-arm is the main difference over the TP11 tone arm used on the Thorens. I have been able to adjust the bearings on the TP11 to work quite well, but losing the string-and-weight anti-skate control would not cause me to mourn.

And my sense is that the K9 cartridge with a microline stylus is probably pretty similar to the AT440MLa except in the top octave. The AT440 is probably hotter in the upper frequencies and seems to prefer a bit lower resistance loading than the standard 47K plus capacitance no greater than 200 pF, which is pretty challenging for most preamps given that the cables impose nearly that much capacitance all by themselves. Those two things were needed to get a flat frequency response, as I recall my reading. But I can't hear very well in that part of the spectrum anyway so I've never bothered. The old testing of the K9 back when there were magazines that did that kind of testing shown more roll-off in the top octave.

As to using way oil in the bearing, that's interesting. I have a South Bend lathe and a Bridgeport mill, so I buy way oil by the gallon in two different grades. Way oil is intentionally sticky to prevent runoff, compared to gear or bearing oil, but I would not have thought that a requirement for a submerged-shaft turntable spindle bearing.

Rick "keeps four different oils for the lathe and three for the mill" Denney

 

[rdenney]

The arm/cartridge resonance is down below 20Hz, and can be triggered by simply playing a blank track, which makes it most "visible" - or play some music, but look at what is happening below 20Hz, in the 5hz to 15hz region - even the basic tracking noise of a blank track will generate a visible peak showing the resonance.

As long as you can record something like the lead out track on a record, and you have the software to break out the frequency spectrum, you should be able to see the resonance quite clearly.

This is one of the nice features of the Holman preamplifier--a high-pass filter that affects 20 Hz not at all but is 6 dB down at 15 Hz and so on. That should help with acoustic feedback to arms that resonate closer to 10 Hz. I think the resonance of the AT440MLa and the Thorens TP11 arm I'm using is maybe 10 or 12 Hz, and the resonance of the Linn Basik and K9 cartridge I have coming to me is more like 8 Hz. That last thing I would want to do is amplify that resonance.

Rick "need to analyzer some needledrops" Denney

 

[Cote Dazur]

Here you go. These are level matched to make comparison easy.

Very interesting, thank you for taking the time.
Not knowing what is what, playing those files back to back, I did not hear any difference.

 

[DSJR]

Good point as regards the oils. I have a collection of Duals and Garrards (sorry @Sal1950) and a sinter-safe 'sticky' oil such as the vactra is important here. It was suggested to me that a sloiughtly viscous oil may be better for the single point bearings as Thorens use, but I daren't say that with certainty.

The AXIS, contrary to Colloms' comments in the 'Choice review, is NOT an LP12 on the cheap. It certainly lacks the 80s era LP12s bass bloom, but it's all a bit 2-D as supplied. Used with K9 (nearest modern equivalent would arguably be a VM95-EN with RigB metal mount attached) and the rubber-diaphragm suspension could be upset with an oscillating kind of feedback into amps with full bandwidth below 20Hz, the stylus wobbling alarmingly in a vertical motion. Mind you, the Basik Plus arm is a bit 'lively' in resonance terms (maybe tamed with a VMX740 or better and the 'sound' was also judged better with a Linn T-cable we fitted at the request of a client (don't you lot DARE to say cables make no difference in this instance!). A well cared for and serviced Lenco GL75 (yes, even with that massive tonearm) was a much nicer thing to listen to LPs via and they used to be very cheap - no need to carve them up and ditch the arm either these days, but the sheeple don't listen

Main thing with the Axis (and early LP12 Valhalla supplies) is that we were told to leave them powered 24/7 and most of the electrolytics on these boards cooked and often failed over twenty or so years, making subsequent repairs rather difficult! I have fitted the third party 'Hercules' two speed Valhalla replacement board to an Axis, leaving the old board in place unpowered as instructed and tapping into the motor wiring, but it's a right bodge as the excess torque must add noise (Linn ceased service on the Axis in 2001 or so).

 

[DSJR]

This is one of the nice features of the Holman preamplifier--a high-pass filter that affects 20 Hz not at all but is 6 dB down at 15 Hz and so on. That should help with acoustic feedback to arms that resonate closer to 20 Hz. I think the resonance of the AT440MLa and the Thorens TP11 arm I'm using is maybe 10 or 12 Hz, and the resonance of the Linn Basik and K9 cartridge I have coming to me is more like 8 Hz. That last thing I would want to do is amplify that resonance.

Rick "need to analyzer some needledrops" Denney

My old Dual has a tuned sprung counterweight to ani-resonate vertically at 15Hz or so, originally set for the V15III as used then, but it seems generally to work with other pickups. Later decks had it adjustable I recall.

 

[rdenney]

Good point as regards the oils. I have a collection of Duals and Garrards (sorry @Sal1950) and a sinter-safe 'sticky' oil such as the vactra is important here. It was suggested to me that a sloiughtly viscous oil may be better for the single point bearings as Thorens use, but I daren't say that with certainty.

The AXIS, contrary to Colloms' comments in the 'Choice review, is NOT an LP12 on the cheap. It certainly lacks the 80s era LP12s bass bloom, but it's all a bit 2-D as supplied and used with K9 and the rubber-diaphragm suspension could be upset with an oscillating kind of feedback into amps with full bandwidth below 20Hz, the stylus wobbling alarmingly in a vertical motion. Mind you, the Basik Plus arm is a bit 'lively' in resonance terms (maybe tamed with a VMX740 or better and the 'sound' was also judged better with a Linn T-cable we fitted at the request of a client (don't you lot DARE to say cables make no difference in this instance!). A well cared for and serviced Lenco GL75 (yes, even with that massive tonearm) was a much nicer thing to listen to LPs via and they used to be very cheap - no need to carve them up and ditch the arm either these days, but the sheeple don't listen

Main thing with the Axis (and early LP12 Valhalla supplies) is that we were told to leave them powered 24/7 and most of the electrolytics on these boards cooked over twenty or so years, making subsequent repairs rather difficult! I have fitted the third party 'Hercules' two speed Valhalla replacement board to an Axis, leaving the old board in place unpowered as instructed and tapping into the motor wiring, but it's a right bodge as the excess torque must add noise (Linn ceased service on the Axis in 2001 or so).

I've already ordered a batch of electrolytic capacitors to replace the ones on the Axis board. The turntable is reportedly not working properly and the auto store my friend took it to could not fix it. But I suspect the limit of their fixit ability will be replacing the belt. Even if they had the skills to recap the board, the axial electrolytics are not easily found and radial equivalents require insulation on one leg and lots of fiddling to get them to fit without standing up. The store's tech may have simply not wanted to bother with all that, or felt the cost of the bother would exceed good sense (and he's probably right on that one). My friend has already got rid of all his vinyl--he suffers from Parkinson's and can't manage handling vinyl LPs without excessive risk--and selling all the vinyl records emptied an entire room in his house. He still has the many thousands of CD's. I'm hoping the capacitors are the problem. He would not have persisted in using it if it displayed any fault, so I'm hoping the motor is still good.

I've looked at YouTube videos of people repairing Axis turntables, and some of them were even helpful in at least understanding the architecture of the machine. The main difference between the Axis and any other AR-style suspended deck with a belt-driven and belt-isolated sub-platter is the rubber damping material instead of steel springs, but I'm not sure this wouldn't be at least as good. There are lots of excellent turntables that are unsuspended, after all. And the high-pass filter in the Holman greatly damps amplified output below 20 Hz, which should help with acoustic feedback at those frequencies.

But I do have a machine shop and while my time is precious it is also free. He's giving the turntable to me so there's little enough invested, and it will be fun to see what I can make of it.

Rick "noise can be measured" Denney

 

[Thomas_A]

I've already ordered a batch of electrolytic capacitors to replace the ones on the Axis board. The turntable is reportedly not working properly and the auto store my friend took it to could not fix it. But I suspect the limit of their fixit ability will be replacing the belt. Even if they had the skills to recap the board, the axial electrolytics are not easily found and radial equivalents require insulation on one leg and lots of fiddling to get them to fit without standing up. The store's tech may have simply not wanted to bother with all that, or felt the cost of the bother would exceed good sense (and he's probably right on that one). My friend has already got rid of all his vinyl--he suffers from Parkinson's and can't manage handling vinyl LPs without excessive risk--and selling all the vinyl records emptied an entire room in his house. He still has the many thousands of CD's. I'm hoping the capacitors are the problem. He would not have persisted in using it if it displayed any fault, so I'm hoping the motor is still good.

I've looked at YouTube videos of people repairing Axis turntables, and some of them were even helpful in at least understanding the architecture of the machine. The main difference between the Axis and any other AR-style suspended deck with a belt-driven and belt-isolated sub-platter is the rubber damping material instead of steel springs, but I'm not sure this wouldn't be at least as good. There are lots of excellent turntables that are unsuspended, after all. And the high-pass filter in the Holman greatly damps amplified output below 20 Hz, which should help with acoustic feedback at those frequencies.

But I do have a machine shop and while my time is precious it is also free. He's giving the turntable to me so there's little enough invested, and it will be fun to see what I can make of it.

Rick "noise can be measured" Denney

I replaced caps of my Axis mk2 1-2 years ago. Powered on since 1990 all old caps except one measured within spec. However if the motor fails there is no replacement other than taking it from another Axis. LP12/Premotec motors differ. Take care when desoldering. The PCB traces sometimes lift and I had to do some repair.

Axis can be upgraded with the LP12 platter for better stability. Just needs readjusting the rubber suspension so that the platter runs above the plinth frame.