The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[DSJR]

So, you guys know that my turntable is a Thorens TD-166II with the stock TP-11 tone arm and an Audio-Technica AT440MLa cartridge. I have restored the turntable to operate as well as possible, including replacing the plastic slip-clutch pulley with an aftermarket pulley made from aluminum, and, just for the fun of it, obtaining a preowned external frequency-agile AC power supply so that I could run the belt on the large pulley and control speed externally.

Other than having to replace the belt once a year, it's working reliably and it looks good to the wife.

So, to the subject of this post: A friend of mine is sending me his Linn Axis turntable, which he bought new in maybe 1986 after both of us received a demo. It has a Basik tone arm and I don't know what cartridge. (EDIT: The cartridge is a K9.) (He's also sending me the turntable he had before he bought the Linn.) The Linn is not working at the moment, so I'll have to repair it if possible. Assuming I am able to do that, what say you guys? Is this an improvement over the Thorens (I doubt it would be audible, so that's not the answer I'm looking for)? Mor reliable than always wondering if the belt has gone bad? Reasonable resistance to mechanical vibration and acoustic feedback? Tonearm mass consistent with high-compliance catridges?

Preamp will be the Holman I recently renovated which has considerable flexibility vis a vis loading capacitance and impedance.

Rick "just beginning to look into it" Denney

Puts on dealer hat yet again -

Get hold of the cast platter from the TD160 (there are at least two spindle diameters involved here) and replace the skimmed plastic hub of the 166. I've no idea why (and a 440MLa pickup may hide it a bit), but I could never get as good a subjective performance out of a 166 than I could a 160 and back then, the only tonearm difference was thread and weight bias correction as against the magnetic arrangement of the TP16 on the TD160 and that shouldn't affect the sound at all really.

Thorens decks in the UK run slightly fast as most Regas do. I have a thicker third party 'replacement' belt which runs perfectly to speed at 33, but the blasted thing won't ride up to '45' due to added stiffness. GREAT idea to use the proper belt (the Thakker one is identical, or mine was) and change it annually if used a lot.

While the bearing is apart, check the thrust pad at the bottom of the well as they wear noticeably after half a century of fairly regular use (TD150s at least will be knackered by now but can't speak for the 125 which looks similar in both versions). I helped mine with a 1mm thick ptfe disc the right diameter gently eased down - the platter now takes ages to spin down as new ones did (before, this well-loved and used example [replaced by a Gyrodek] came to a stop rather more quickly than I remember new ones doing). I got the recommended DTE-medium oil for the motor bearings and used Mobil Vactra 68 slideway oil for the main bearing, as I was told it's safe on sintered sleeves and very similar to the wonderful stuff Dual used to use. Some Thorens bearings had slop which is a sonic killer and a slightly heavier oil can help here without messing things up.

Apologies for the stuff above, but hope you or any other Thorens owner may find it useful.

Oh, and if it's the stock flat rubber mat of the TD160 family, the EMT style type as used on the TD160 Super and 147 'Jubilee' model is better for record support and I've also used on my ton-up TD160, a heavy Avon rubber mat (suspension adjusted accordingly) and an Oracle squidge-mat I somehow have here. Anything but the flat thing Thorens styled for the TD160 series originally (Colloms measured it as well I seem to recall, while giving the deck a Best Buy regardless).

Aftermarket damping kits may help, as the pressed sub-chassis thuds through to the stylus if disturbed, but they cost a kings ransom sadly.

 

[DSJR]

You can't forget that eighties was the sunset of vinyl, prices begin to fade quickly. At that time I sold my turntable.
I think this discussion is worthless, in my experience (what I lived at that time) a cartridge costing that much wasn't popular. At all.

The V15VMR was cheap, where I came from and even the UK price wasn't silly high (those that knew this cartridge and also worked with masters and digitising old recordings professionally, loved it!)... We regularly sold Linn Troikas and the odd Kiseki too at double that price and even a Koetsu Black or two, which I loved rather more than the rose-tinted Red and Onyx models.

 

[DSJR]

Tonearm ... one of the great questions I have, personally. A "high end" tonearm is really an audible upgrade?

I don't have any doubts on cartridge / stylus (I checked out), but I won't buy a SME tonearm to see what happens

You can only buy an SME used these days...

I can personally say that a humble AT95E (yes folks, it's been around forever), improved in reproduction quality the better deck and arm it was fitted to. I do appreciate the very humble roots of this thing and how much better ATs better MM body is internally, but the 95E was an excellent way to show the hierarchy idea well.

 

[DSJR]

That's why I hated it.
I put together my system to Listen To Music.
Not spend endless hours tweaking it in an attempt to make it sound
almost as good as digital.
YMMV

You now what I did in my main rig? I replaced a hugely heavy (current version now many thousands of pounds in cost) deck, arm and fussy unreliable cartridge in 1995 with a then twenty year old Dual 701/V15VMR which it loved. I had CD balance and the 'picture was all there, just slightly smaller in scale than the behemoth it replaced. The V15VMR was damaged, probably terminally in the cantilever and I had huge fun for a while trying old but once well respected pickups which we've discussed ad nauseum in other threads. Lo and behold, the V15 IIILM (special mount for the Dual arm) still sounds closest to 'CD' although on some pressings it can be just a little 'intense,' this aspect improved hugely with the HE stylus I remember (and didn't get - I don't think the UK ever saw the MR version...). Currently, it's playing host to a low hours Super OM30 which it and I like very much (a 2M Bronze is too expensive and no trade contacts now for a 'deal'). The Dual is now fifty years old and is absolutely fine (the infamous Dual 'Pimpel' was replaced as they all need, but that's it)

No need to spend hours on it. Being 'me,' I've done a couple of minor things to aid record support, so a playing disc can be rapped firmly without the bass cones going awol or any real 'thump' coming through via the stylus and I'm delighted with the sound when I want to play some records. The MUSIC rules as you/we all should know, but I'm happy.

The second rig and the collection of other less good decks is where I have my hobby-fun, where I come to the rig not expecting much and then being pleasantly surprised how good it can sound, despite itself

 

[Thomas_A]

You're avoiding all the rest of the vinyl ritual from the constant cleaning for the discs, needles, all the rest. Having to flip a side every 15-20 minutes. Just so much more, all those other time suckers that are a demanding part of the ritual. If you find that fun, have at it.. I'd rather be listening MUSIC, in SOTA sound quality, available in 2, 4, 5/7.1 and Atmos/Auro immersive..
So much music, so little time.

I do not really see cleaning as the tweaking part, but yea it is more work. Flipping sides is good for my health though.

As I've mentioned before; vinyl may cause expectations of enjoyment to go down, but at the same time, the surprises get larger. While there are no real multi-channel formats, some vinyl recordings also work quite well using the Dolby music mode.

 

[Bland_username42069]

I do not really see cleaning as the tweaking part, but yea it is more work. Flipping sides is good for my health though.

As I've mentioned before; vinyl may cause expectations of enjoyment to go down, but at the same time, the surprises get larger. While there are no real multi-channel formats, some vinyl recordings also work quite well using the Dolby music mode.

I have one of these for my deck

Surround Master V3 - INVOLVE AUDIO

involveaudio.com

But I haven’t had time to set it up to try it with vinyl. Stereo’s never really interested me - I’m more than happy listening to mono but I’m curious how decoding stereo into multi channel from turntable with involve sounds

 

[The_Fall]

You’re being kind

Can you elaborate on what's misleading?

 

[MatrixS2000]

Was it evident to hear, did you tried an unsighted test?

I don’t bother with unsighted testing any longer. I trust the measurements as they will be way more accurate than any pair of ears. Do you want me to post a short portion of both for you to listen to?

 

[MatrixS2000]

Which pressing was that?

This is a record I bought used, so no idea how many plays are on it. It is this pressing - Reprise Record – MS 2225.

Here are the measurements for your needle drop:

Spectrum:

Dynamics:

Very nice sounding needle drop Thomas.

 

[Thomas_A]

This is a record I bought used, so no idea how many plays are on it. It is this pressing - Reprise Record – MS 2225.

Here are the measurements for your needle drop:

Spectrum:
View attachment 458368

Dynamics:
View attachment 458369
View attachment 458370

Very nice sounding needle drop Thomas.

Thanks,

the pressing I have I believe is this one:

https://www.discogs.com/release/4858577-Fleetwood-Mac-Fleetwood-Mac

Bought a long time ago new but have played quite much over the years.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Do you want me to post a short portion of both for you to listen to?

Yes, if you can, that would be nice. I would do the test, curious to see if I can hear the difference that the measurement are showing.

 

[mike70]

I do not really see cleaning as the tweaking part, but yea it is more work. Flipping sides is good for my health though.

As I've mentioned before; vinyl may cause expectations of enjoyment to go down, but at the same time, the surprises get larger. While there are no real multi-channel formats, some vinyl recordings also work quite well using the Dolby music mode.

I think is worthless to discuss with someone who don't share the analog (in fact, it hates that ) reproduction about stuff relative to analog reproduction. What's a pleasure for you is a pain for them.

So, instead, we can discuss how to enjoy the hobby.

 

[dlaloum]

Yep, the closer you get to perfection, the more logarithmic the scale of money needed for increment of improvement becomes. The last 3% is a financial rocket lift off blast of money.

And the audibility of the resulting improvements become progressively more and more debatable...

95% of the improvements are available at relatively "budget" levels of investment

 

[dlaloum]

Okay I see, thanks for clarifying some things for me. So it looks like tracking ability is paramount here. And that figure (under best circumstances) is rather average for my beloved Koetsu Black anyways, and that cart measures terribly as well. Yet it somehow does the job for me. Sometimes my vinyl sounds so good that I wonder how in the world I got it to sound that way, against all odds. I did check Vinyl Engine and the calculators, but there's some confusion about Japanese compliance units, and how to convert it for use in the calculator. Some say you need a heavy arm to go with a low compliance cart such as Koetsu, but then they're not really that low compliance if units are converted properly. I don't know, ear test says good, so that's most important for me.

I wonder if a different cart might be a better match, like an AT33PTG/II. Had my eye on that one, it's kind of classic at this point, but I think it's more neutral than my Koetsu. I don't think I want neutral, I want lush and exciting. But wonder's all I got since I'm kinda broke, and won't be spending anymore until Christmas time. Regardless, I am currently enamored with the analogue side of things, completely happy with it, and won't be changing things for a while. But I will have that AT cart someday, just as a sidegrade when the Koetsu dies, and to see what a good tracker is actually like.

If in doubt, measure the resonance - find out where that low frequency peak sits.... and that will tell you whether you need a lighter or heavier arm (or a lower/higher compliance cartridge)

 

[dlaloum]

With the mechanism of IGD being one of the stylus minor radius physically fitting the groove modulation, how in the world is reducing tracking error going to solve that?

Inner groove is a worst case situation - if the other parameters aren't right, then it will exacerbate what is frequently already a marginal situation... in addition to the stylus minor radius issue, the stylus needs to be more precisely positioned horizontally - there is far less scope for error.... which is why linear trackers often do better on inner grooves - if your minor radius has sufficient "margin" distance from the highest frequency on the recording, it is less of an issue... if your recording has a lot of high frequencies (such as sibilance) - then this can become a nasty bugbear... My Revox linear tracker with a ML stylus cartridge tends to do very well with regards to IGD. My Previous (stolen by a burglar ) JVC QL-Y5F used to experience issues on records where the Revox didn't...

 

[dlaloum]

You can only buy an SME used these days...

I can personally say that a humble AT95E (yes folks, it's been around forever), improved in reproduction quality the better deck and arm it was fitted to. I do appreciate the very humble roots of this thing and how much better ATs better MM body is internally, but the 95E was an excellent way to show the hierarchy idea well.

Remember that the Clearaudio Maestro cartridges are just an AT95 with a fancy boron cantilever and ML stylus.

Sadly, I don't know of any high end third party styli for the AT95... I have to assume that Jico must have some sort of agreement with AT not to release higher end styli...

 

[JP]

Inner groove is a worst case situation - if the other parameters aren't right, then it will exacerbate what is frequently already a marginal situation... in addition to the stylus minor radius issue, the stylus needs to be more precisely positioned horizontally - there is far less scope for error.... which is why linear trackers often do better on inner grooves - if your minor radius has sufficient "margin" distance from the highest frequency on the recording, it is less of an issue... if your recording has a lot of high frequencies (such as sibilance) - then this can become a nasty bugbear... My Revox linear tracker with a ML stylus cartridge tends to do very well with regards to IGD. My Previous (stolen by a burglar ) JVC QL-Y5F used to experience issues on records where the Revox didn't...

I don’t see any data (at all, or) that backs up “can often be resolved”.

 

[dlaloum]

I don’t see any data (at all, or) that backs up “can often be resolved”.

In many cases the stylus radius itself is sufficiently small to not suffer from IGD if properly positioned, but at the inner grooves issues with LTA, SRA, Azimuth become exacerbated as the margin of error is reduced due to the higher frequency spacing being substantially reduced at the inner groove.

People with experience on linear trackers vs standard arms (especially standard length arms... and their inherently compromised geometry) can attest to this.

No I do not have measurements (and no longer have an "standard" arm based TT)

There was a discussion of this here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=124057&sid=034ae67aa2c00290896f4a7e4fd5ceee

PS: nothing "resolves" an issue which is completely fundamental to the medium itself.... which is that on the inner grooves the recording is compressed into smaller spaces/distances, requiring more precise cartridge / stylus positioning as well as finer stylus minor radius to replay the recording with minimum distortion...

 

[dlaloum]

Indeed, I suppose with MMs, where there isn't a tiewire you would be right. I don't know about MCs, where the cantilever is usually tied back to stop any longitudinal movement, but indeed, the platform should offer 3D motion.

S.

Tie wire isn't exclusive to MM's - there are MC designs that have it (or used to have it)

And there are plenty of MM designs without tie wire

 

[drewdawg999]

If in doubt, measure the resonance - find out where that low frequency peak sits.... and that will tell you whether you need a lighter or heavier arm (or a lower/higher compliance cartridge)

Do you need a test record to do this? (I don't have one.) Though my gut tells me nothing's wrong, no rumble or hum, hardly any noise at all. Nothing unusual about playback, just beautiful music.