The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[JP]

Inner groove distortion can often be resolved (or the situation improved) with a better tracking cartridge, or with a longer arm, or with a linear tracking arm. All of these "solutions" are audible.

With the mechanism of IGD being one of the stylus minor radius physically fitting the groove modulation, how in the world is reducing tracking error going to solve that?

 

[mike70]

I have the AT 33 ptg2 and I find it veeeery neutral, I mean, a little "dark" sound subjectively. I don't made a digitalization to check it out (lazy!), but the difference is very clear subjectively with my AT's MM (vm95 and vm540 with metallic body)

All that cartridges are microline and the 33 MC have a boron cantilever ... they sound fantastic really. I never had that kind of SQ with vinyl before (with the "classic" elliptical cartridges or even the Ortofon blue)

 

[Bland_username42069]

For arms , the only new ones I can see that would seem to address specific problems in playback over other types are the dynavector for tracking warped records and Thales for trying to combine parallel and stardard arms.

I’m sure there are others

Warp is always my issue as I normally by poorly pressed records from hot countries so it’s unavoidable

 

[sergeauckland]

This is the case, test records to test linearity and performance near upper and lower modulation limits are limited or non-existant afaik.
We used to have B&K test records in R&D but not sure they are still made, and if they are how worn the stampers are.
There are serious limits in our ability to measure much about record player performance and these are the two main ones.
It probably does matter how well a cartridge copes with high modulation and how linear its magnetic circuit is, particularly since on a warped record the tranducing section spends lots of the time away from its central position.

A friend of mine who designs magnetic circuits told me one of the cartridge makers did not want to make their transducer more linear because it may change their traditional sound signature (probably correct) but AFAIK nobody has measured these things not least because of the limitation on test records.

I wonder (I have lots of time to wonder!) whether in the same way as rumble can be measured using a bridge rather than a test record, whether cartridge performance couldn't be measured using a 2D vibrating platform that simulates a record. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make a small platform that vibrates horizontally and vertically with any arbitrary accuracy and controlled by software. I can't however see there would be a large market for these things, but then Kippel at some €100,000 for a full system manages to stay in business.

That would avoid all the issues with inaccurate or worn out test records.

S.

 

[Soniclife]

I wonder (I have lots of time to wonder!) whether in the same way as rumble can be measured using a bridge rather than a test record, whether cartridge performance couldn't be measured using a 2D vibrating platform that simulates a record. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make a small platform that vibrates horizontally and vertically with any arbitrary accuracy and controlled by software. I can't however see there would be a large market for these things, but then Kippel at some €100,000 for a full system manages to stay in business.

That would avoid all the issues with inaccurate or worn out test records.

S.

Would that be accurate without the 3rd dimension adding drag to the stylus, that's got to change the geometry of the coils and magnets.

 

[sergeauckland]

Would that be accurate without the 3rd dimension adding drag to the stylus, that's got to change the geometry of the coils and magnets.

Indeed, I suppose with MMs, where there isn't a tiewire you would be right. I don't know about MCs, where the cantilever is usually tied back to stop any longitudinal movement, but indeed, the platform should offer 3D motion.

S.

 

[Soniclife]

I saw this the other day, its a comparison of Dynamic Range of the latest Metallica Album. I checked and the trend continues back through their catalogue. I had no idea vinyl had higher dynamic range
View attachment 458214

That tool isn't to be trusted with vinyl, it's been looked into before here. My memory is that someone took a CD, added noise and distortion to mimick vinyl and the DR number went up.

That's not to say that record isn't more dynamic on vinyl, they do have form.

 

[JP]

Many MM implementations use a tie wire.

https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/TechnicalReview1976-2.pdf

 

[MatrixS2000]

If your analysis is infrequent, suggest it should be fine to post here. If you intend to do ongoing testing of vinyl recordings, creating a separate thread seems a better way to organize content (as opposed to entangling it within a thread focused more on equipment content).

Of course, that would be spamming this thread. I post these traces to support my points, support others that cannot do these traces or disprove assertions.



For those looking for differences between hardware setups:

I have 2 analog systems:

System 1 consists of Project RPM9 —> 9c Tonearm —> Benz Micro Ref3 Silver cartridge (Iron Cross, micro-line, boron cartridge) —> Whest Ref PS30 Phono stage

System 2 consists of JVC L-FX4B (this was my first TT and is over 40 yrs old, recently died) —> Stock tone arm —> Audio-Technica AT85EP (MM, elliptical) —> Parasound Zphono

My ADC = Tascam DA-3000

A few years ago, I ripped Fleetwood Mac’s Monday morning on both systems.

Here is what the spectrum for each looks like (system 1 first for all traces):

Not remarkably different. But if we start looking at other aspects, differences start to appear.

Dynamics:

Phase Correlation:

In this test scenario, it's challenging to pinpoint where the differences in the analog chain arise, as each chain is completely different. The key takeaway is that focusing solely on frequency response (FR) doesn't provide a complete picture. As shown in the spectrum plots above, the two systems appear quite similar from that perspective.

 

[MatrixS2000]

That ones not as clear cut. This link shows varying DR for vinyl, cd and download:

https://dr.loudness-war.info/?artist=metallica&album=metallica

Here are the traces. I thought I had it on CD but it is actually SACD, but no matter the loudness maximization applied to the SACD can still be seen. I have highlighted the most obvious one in red:

First here are the dynamics traces (vinyl first, followed by the SACD):

Now if we look at the Loudness trace for both, we can easily see that loudness maximization was applied to the SACD to drive up the volume in the area - and that does not come for free. The cost is loss of DR.:

This example is actually quite close, they did a good job on the SACD.

 

[The_Fall]

Good morning all, interesting thread to come across. I'll be following along and hope to chime in.

 

[EJ3]

Good morning all, interesting thread to come across. I'll be following along and hope to chime in.

Welcome! Good to have you join us.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Of course, that would be spamming this thread. I post these traces to support my points, support others that cannot do these traces or disprove assertions.



For those looking for differences between hardware setups:

I have 2 analog systems:

System 1 consists of Project RPM9 —> 9c Tonearm —> Benz Micro Ref3 Silver cartridge (Iron Cross, micro-line, boron cartridge) —> Whest Ref PS30 Phono stage

System 2 consists of JVC L-FX4B (this was my first TT and is over 40 yrs old, recently died) —> Stock tone arm —> Audio-Technica AT85EP (MM, elliptical) —> Parasound Zphono

My ADC = Tascam DA-3000

A few years ago, I ripped Fleetwood Mac’s Monday morning on both systems.

Here is what the spectrum for each looks like (system 1 first for all traces):

View attachment 458313
View attachment 458314
Not remarkably different. But if we start looking at other aspects, differences start to appear.

Dynamics:
View attachment 458315
View attachment 458316
Phase Correlation:
View attachment 458317
View attachment 458319

In this test scenario, it's challenging to pinpoint where the differences in the analog chain arise, as each chain is completely different. The key takeaway is that focusing solely on frequency response (FR) doesn't provide a complete picture. As shown in the spectrum plots above, the two systems appear quite similar from that perspective.

Fascinating, thank you for sharing. Quite difference in dynamic, this must be quite easy to hear. Was it evident to hear, did you tried an unsighted test?
I would love to see more test like that from the TT/tone arm/cartridge manufacturer, to back the marketing claims.

 

[Thomas_A]

Of course, that would be spamming this thread. I post these traces to support my points, support others that cannot do these traces or disprove assertions.



For those looking for differences between hardware setups:

I have 2 analog systems:

System 1 consists of Project RPM9 —> 9c Tonearm —> Benz Micro Ref3 Silver cartridge (Iron Cross, micro-line, boron cartridge) —> Whest Ref PS30 Phono stage

System 2 consists of JVC L-FX4B (this was my first TT and is over 40 yrs old, recently died) —> Stock tone arm —> Audio-Technica AT85EP (MM, elliptical) —> Parasound Zphono

My ADC = Tascam DA-3000

A few years ago, I ripped Fleetwood Mac’s Monday morning on both systems.

Here is what the spectrum for each looks like (system 1 first for all traces):

View attachment 458313
View attachment 458314
Not remarkably different. But if we start looking at other aspects, differences start to appear.

Dynamics:
View attachment 458315
View attachment 458316
Phase Correlation:
View attachment 458317
View attachment 458319

In this test scenario, it's challenging to pinpoint where the differences in the analog chain arise, as each chain is completely different. The key takeaway is that focusing solely on frequency response (FR) doesn't provide a complete picture. As shown in the spectrum plots above, the two systems appear quite similar from that perspective.

Which pressing was that? I have a re-issue with a sticker mid-price.

A rip here:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[The_Fall]

I have got a lot of value out of mining the Korf blog for tonearm, drive systems, and cartridge discussions. He has measured results and interactive graphs to show direct AB comparisons of many aspects of cartridge and tonearm interactions. i have also have a few conversations with him. He is now fully in the manufacturer camp with his findings being implemented into his own arm and headshell. Nonetheless, I think his site is worth reading.

 

[Sal1950]

I love vinyl, you can never stop fiddling with it.

That's why I hated it.
I put together my system to Listen To Music.
Not spend endless hours tweaking it in an attempt to make it sound
almost as good as digital.
YMMV

 

[Thomas_A]

That's why I hated it.
I put together my system to Listen To Music.
Not spend endless hours tweaking it in an attempt to make it sound
almost as good as digital.
YMMV

In the past, there was not as good measurement possibilities. Today you ca do the set-up, measure, adjust, repeat if needed, done. For those that still do not measure, they may be stuck in the endless loop of "tweaking" though.

 

[Thomas_A]

I have got a lot of value out of mining the Korf blog for tonearm, drive systems, and cartridge discussions. He has measured results and interactive graphs to show direct AB comparisons of many aspects of cartridge and tonearm interactions. i have also have a few conversations with him. He is now fully in the manufacturer camp with his findings being implemented into his own arm and headshell. Nonetheless, I think his site is worth reading.

The Korf Blog has some interesting stuff but also some less correct information that are misleading.

 

[Sal1950]

In the past, there was not as good measurement possibilities. Today you ca do the set-up, measure, adjust, repeat if needed, done. For those that still do not measure, they may be stuck in the endless loop of "tweaking" though.

You're avoiding all the rest of the vinyl ritual from the constant cleaning for the discs, needles, all the rest. Having to flip a side every 15-20 minutes. Just so much more, all those other time suckers that are a demanding part of the ritual. If you find that fun, have at it.. I'd rather be listening MUSIC, in SOTA sound quality, available in 2, 4, 5/7.1 and Atmos/Auro immersive..
So much music, so little time.

 

[JP]

The Korf Blog has some interesting stuff but also some less correct information that are misleading.

You’re being kind