The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Newman]

How about this one? @RickS? Or we could open a new one with a clear title and purpose that it is about balanced discussion ("ups and downs" as you put it), and manage it properly.

Not sure what you are asking.

Looking for a vinyl discussion thread that welcomes the sort of robust and balanced discussion that this thread is not really meant to handle. I showed a link to one possible thread, or asked if it would be better to have a separate one.

 

[Newman]

the new AT 750 with microline / boron cantilever at 350 USD. You DON'T have that in 70s / 80s.

The original 1983 V15VMR was $275 RRP which is $800 today, and its hollow beryllium cantilever was arguably next-level stuff above boron. And you never paid RRP for Shure; mail order houses were selling it for $125-$140 ($375-$420 today).

Still looks to me like price is the only difference.

 

[RickS]

Looking for a vinyl discussion thread that welcomes the sort of robust and balanced discussion that this thread is not really meant to handle. I showed a link to one possible thread, or asked if it would be better to have a separate one.

My plan was that this thread would suffice. Vinyl is a mature, staid technology so should not require another thread. There are already other threads that are more specific, but am not against another thread if someone feels a need for deeper dive into some aspect.

The other thread you mentioned is focused around analysis of why there has been a vinyl revival. There is another closed thread that may be still useful. It was titled The Truth About Vinyl Records. If that might be the more robust thread you seek, let me know. It appears to have been closed in favor of the “Renaissance” thread. To be clear though, I really do not see ASR as the right forum for a very subjective pro-vinyl discussion. As stated, this thread is meant to be courteous and objective.

 

[mike70]

The original 1983 V15VMR was $275 RRP which is $800 today, and its hollow beryllium cantilever was arguably next-level stuff above boron. And you never paid RRP for Shure; mail order houses were selling it for $125-$140 ($375-$420 today).

Still looks to me like price is the only difference.

You can't forget that eighties was the sunset of vinyl, prices begin to fade quickly. At that time I sold my turntable.
I think this discussion is worthless, in my experience (what I lived at that time) a cartridge costing that much wasn't popular. At all.

 

[Bob from Florida]

My plan was that this thread would suffice. Vinyl is a mature, staid technology so should not require another thread. There are already other threads that are more specific, but am not against another thread if someone feels a need for deeper dive into some aspect.

The other thread you mentioned is focused around analysis of why there has been a vinyl revival. There is another closed thread that may be still useful. It was titled The Truth About Vinyl Records. If that might be the more robust thread you seek, let me know. It appears to have been closed in favor of the “Renaissance” thread. To be clear though, I really do not see ASR as the right forum for a very subjective pro-vinyl discussion. As stated, this thread is meant to be courteous and objective.

The solution for @Newman or anyone else seeking a thread perhaps containing the "best" elements of the recently closed thread is start a new thread and see what happens. The whole point of this thread was to avoid the "trolling" occurring elsewhere - hence the wording of post number one.

Vinyl playback has opportunities for the user to achieve audible improvements through careful setup and selection of components. The Cartridge measurement thread is a terrific example of differences in cartridge selections. This thread is really simple, you could do something to your setup - current example is the record puck. You think you heard a difference - this is an arcane mechanical technology after all - it might be "real". Let's talk about how we can verify through measurements or blind testing. This can be done in a respectful way and even be fun!

 

[Newman]

The solution for @Newman or anyone else seeking a thread perhaps containing the "best" elements of the recently closed thread is start a new thread and see what happens. The whole point of this thread was to avoid the "trolling" occurring elsewhere - hence the wording of post number one.

Vinyl playback has opportunities for the user to achieve audible improvements through careful setup and selection of components. The Cartridge measurement thread is a terrific example of differences in cartridge selections. This thread is really simple, you could do something to your setup - current example is the record puck. You think you heard a difference - this is an arcane mechanical technology after all - it might be "real". Let's talk about how we can verify through measurements or blind testing. This can be done in a respectful way and even be fun!

That's how I see it too.

 

[MatrixS2000]

This thread is really simple, you could do something to your setup - current example is the record puck.

Just so I know - is your goal with this thread strictly for setup or are you also exploring better media?

 

[mike70]

The solution for @Newman or anyone else seeking a thread perhaps containing the "best" elements of the recently closed thread is start a new thread and see what happens. The whole point of this thread was to avoid the "trolling" occurring elsewhere - hence the wording of post number one.

Vinyl playback has opportunities for the user to achieve audible improvements through careful setup and selection of components. The Cartridge measurement thread is a terrific example of differences in cartridge selections. This thread is really simple, you could do something to your setup - current example is the record puck. You think you heard a difference - this is an arcane mechanical technology after all - it might be "real". Let's talk about how we can verify through measurements or blind testing. This can be done in a respectful way and even be fun!

Exactly! ... to use science in the analog reproduction, not to get into "flame wars" on the format.
that's what (i think) all the people using analog in ASR wants ... how we can improve our analog systems based on data / facts?
to talk / fight on the subjective aspects there's a myriad of forums on the internet

 

[EJ3]

You can't forget that eighties was the sunset of vinyl, prices begin to fade quickly. At that time I sold my turntable.
I think this discussion is worthless, in my experience (what I lived at that time) a cartridge costing that much wasn't popular. At all.

That's why many folks that I knew in the audio clubs (about 50 people) and others not in audio clubs (about another 50 people) (and only a very few used more than one cartridge, though about 50% had spare styli [styluses?]): had one, right?
Or the just below TOTL Radio Shack equivalents?
My old (1970's) Connoisseur BD2 still has a SHURE V15 Type III attached to it's Grace tone arm & it's been over 40 years since I have had that TT hooked up to anything.
Up through 1999, while many had CD players at home they were primarily for making mix tapes for cars. it was a long time (after 1999) before there were more car CD systems than cassette tape systems.
That is what I lived at the time & I lived in a rural area (you know, lots of farm land & places to hunt) that is now, unfortunately, no longer rural).
The back yard is still good, though (and with native species [the city limits is across the street]):

 

[mike70]

That's why many folks that I knew in the audio clubs (about 50 people) and others not in audio clubs (about another 50 people) (and only a very few used more than one cartridge, though about 50% had spare styli [styluses?]): had one, right?
Or the just below TOTL Radio Shack equivalents?
My old (1970's) Connoisseur BD2 still has a SHURE V15 Type III attached to it's Grace tone arm & it's been over 40 years since I have had that TT hooked up to anything.
Up through 1999, while many had CD players at home they were primarily for making mix tapes for cars. it was a long time (after 1999) before there were more car CD systems than cassette tape systems.
That is what I lived at the time & I lived in a rural area (you know, lots of farm land & places to hunt) that is now, unfortunately, no longer rural).
The back yard is still good, though (and with native species [the city limits is across the street]):
View attachment 458142
View attachment 458141
View attachment 458143

good times rolling

to enjoy life is the best hobby, congrats!

 

[Cote Dazur]

that's what (i think) all the people using analog in ASR wants ... how we can improve our analog systems based on data / facts?

That is how I see it as well. As you wrote, their is a plethora of forum on the internet where people can argue subjectively without a shred of measured evidence on how a TT or a cartridge seems better to them. I expect that here, if someone claims any difference or improvement here at ASR, it has to be backed by some measurements or legit blind comparison.
What also need to be understood is that we all listen subjectively when indulging in our hobby of listening to music at home. Our impressions are based on what we are familiar with, most likely learned to appreciate. Within those circumstances, for many of us in a thread like this one, vinyl is a solution we enjoy, as part of a panoply of sources to access our preferred music experience.
It is only natural, that ASR host threads where like minded hobbyist can exchange on a the very legitimate practice of indulging in vinyl listening.

 

[mike70]

That is how I see it as well. As you wrote, their is a plethora of forum on the internet where people can argue subjectively without a shred of measured evidence on how a TT or a cartridge seems better to them. I expect that here, if someone claims any difference or improvement here at ASR, it has to be backed by some measurements or legit blind comparison.
What also need to be understood is that we all listen subjectively when indulging in our hobby of listening to music at home. Our impressions are based on what we are familiar with, most likely learned to appreciate. Within those circumstances, for many of us in a thread like this one, vinyl is a solution we enjoy, as part of a panoply of sources to access our preferred music experience.
It is only natural, that ASR host threads where like minded hobbyist can exchange on a the very legitimate practice of indulging in vinyl listening.

well, it's a free world ... our goals are crystal clear.
I think the best place is here in ASR (in this thread or another), but ... it's my hope, not my decision
if that's annoying for the forum, we can then create other space

Life is short, and i use the hobby to enjoy it, not to annoy anyone ... or myself. Respect and tolerance.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

The solution for @Newman or anyone else seeking a thread perhaps containing the "best" elements of the recently closed thread is start a new thread and see what happens. The whole point of this thread was to avoid the "trolling" occurring elsewhere - hence the wording of post number one.

Vinyl playback has opportunities for the user to achieve audible improvements through careful setup and selection of components. The Cartridge measurement thread is a terrific example of differences in cartridge selections. This thread is really simple, you could do something to your setup - current example is the record puck. You think you heard a difference - this is an arcane mechanical technology after all - it might be "real". Let's talk about how we can verify through measurements or blind testing. This can be done in a respectful way and even be fun!

In the spirit of application of science, research and engineering for vinyl playback... Cranfield Institute of Technology came up with the idea of a damping trough at the stylus end of the tonearm - which they patented. The result was the Rock turntable:

U.S. Patent for Phonograph Patent (Patent # 4,277,070 issued July 7, 1981) - Justia Patents Search

A phonograph has a viscous damping arrangement coupling a pick-up arm to the base of the phonograph to damp vertical and horizontal vibrations of the arm. The damping means is coupled to the arm at a position close to the pick-up cartridge of the arm. A counter-balance mass is also provided on...

patents.justia.com

 

[lini]

(...) As context for Test #1, I see on the cartridge measurements thread that elliptical carts seem to routinely achieve responses out to 20 kHz with no rolling off in the top octaves, eg AT OC9 EN vs OC9 ML. So I see no basis for a claim that changing from elliptical to microline will immediately result in much better details and HF response. (...)

Usual frequency response measurement might not tell the whole story. I.e., as a frequency response test record isn't meant to be a worst conditions torture test, I'd expect frequency response test records to contain the test signal in "easily digestable" form, so preferably rather closer to the outer limit of the LP playback area than to the inner limit and also in a comparatively low level (like for example at -20 dB or maybe even cut at a constant, comparatively moderate modulation velocity, which hence would require progressively less amplitude with rising frequency). And hence the benefits of a ridge-type line contact tip compared to a standard elliptical might not show up at all, if such a test record is used.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini


edit: Actual reply added. Had clicked the wrong button before... *sigh*

 

[Bob from Florida]

Just so I know - is your goal with this thread strictly for setup or are you also exploring better media?

Not sure what you mean, however, perhaps keep to things that affect playback.

 

[Newman]

Just so I know - is your goal with this thread strictly for setup or are you also exploring better media?

Not sure what you mean, however, perhaps keep to things that affect playback.

Since Bob is not sure what you mean, I will give my thoughts.

If, by 'better media', you mean digital media in a comparative sense with vinyl, I think that is NOT what Bob wants. (Bob to confirm.)

But one reason this thread was not especially voluminous before this week, was that Bob's original conception for this thread was NOT to be just a giant vinyl chatty-whatty thread of anecdotes along the lines of "I changed this and it sounds soooo much better", or whole personal histories of living the vinyl life, shopping for records, etc. Instead, Bob wants to see this thread discuss ways to modify or improve vinyl playback....WITH EVIDENCE. Anecdotes don't have much weight as evidence, so Bob is asking us to help out by carrying out MEASUREMENTS or carrying out BLIND LISTENING TRIALS. Then show us that evidence. (Bob to confirm.)

And that's why this thread is relatively constrained and brief. "Oh, you want me to prove that it made an improvement. Gulp!" The posts dry up.

But that's also why I really like this thread, I think Bob has conceived it brilliantly, and I am very interested in what it delivers. That's also why I asked @RickS if we can identify a different thread for the other stuff.[Edit: and I think his response was to create subject-specific threads for each vinyl topic, so they can be scope-managed by their owners.]

cheers

 

[MatrixS2000]

Not sure what you mean, however, perhaps keep to things that affect playback.

What I meant was that some vinyl is mastered better than others. So having objective measurements of which is actually better I find is the biggest bang for the buck in analog playback.

But if you want to stick with hardware playback only - no problem. For your record puck example, a few years back I did back to back needle drops with and without a puck and compared the spectrograms. If memory serves me correctly, there was basically no difference. I don’t think I still have those captures, but when I get my analog side back up and running, I can redo and post the results.

 

[dlaloum]

You can't forget that eighties was the sunset of vinyl, prices begin to fade quickly. At that time I sold my turntable.
I think this discussion is worthless, in my experience (what I lived at that time) a cartridge costing that much wasn't popular. At all.

The V15V was one of the biggest selling upper end performance cartridges ....

Wasn't to be seen on the bottom end of the market (obviously) as the cartridge cost more than a low end turntable - and many people bought a "stereo" which included a TT, and adding a V15V would have increased the total cost by 30% or more.

But once you got into the audiophile / Hi Fi market - the competition in the mid 80's (when I worked in a "HiFi store") was between high priced MC's and the Shure V15V or AT150/160 at the high end of the MM scale... ultimately the MC's won and became the popular flavour of the day... at more than twice the price of the typical high end MM. The MM's continued to outsell the MC's though, simply on price.

 

[drewdawg999]

What I meant was that some vinyl is mastered better than others. So having objective measurements of which is actually better I find is the biggest bang for the buck in analog playback.

I am very interested in this aspect of the hobby. For example, I've been obsessing over Robert Ludwig masterings lately, and this has culminated in me shelling out for an RL/LH cut of Led Zeppelin II, a legendary white whale that I finally landed. This mastering is so far superior to any other for this album, and this includes the digital ones. There's this thing about playing Zeppelin at a certain volume (i.e. LOUD) for full enjoyment and satisfaction, and for sure a hot mix will aid in that quest. All others sound unexciting in comparison. It may be more enjoyable to listen to a VG copy of the RL than a NM of any other mastering, but that's mostly subjective. I suppose you can analyze for dynamic range and that will determine which is best, but I believe it's ultimately subjective since mastering is part an artistic practice in additional to technical achievement.

I'd like to share a needle drop, captured by cell, of this white whale, because I'm so elated with this milestone in my vast collection. (May need to pump volume)

I think that sounds pretty damn good, despite coming from a cell mic. Especially important for the album is the quality of the bass, since John Paul Jones is brilliant on the album. It should be high in the mix and easy to follow, otherwise it's left sounding a bit thin and lacking in drive. Perhaps these things may be noticeable in spectral analysis of needle drops, in which case I would be willing to present a couple examples here (like I have done in the past on the Renaissance thread). I agree that mastering makes a huge difference in sound quality, perhaps more than which cartridge or tonearm you're using.

 

[mike70]

The V15V was one of the biggest selling upper end performance cartridges ....

Wasn't to be seen on the bottom end of the market (obviously) as the cartridge cost more than a low end turntable - and many people bought a "stereo" which included a TT, and adding a V15V would have increased the total cost by 30% or more.

But once you got into the audiophile / Hi Fi market - the competition in the mid 80's (when I worked in a "HiFi store") was between high priced MC's and the Shure V15V or AT150/160 at the high end of the MM scale... ultimately the MC's won and became the popular flavour of the day... at more than twice the price of the typical high end MM. The MM's continued to outsell the MC's though, simply on price.

And you're talking about US market ... I don't need to tell you that in other countries, the Shure was only a dream