The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[MattHooper]

I was just doing a bit more music exploration…YouTube combined with the discographic app (which is a nicer looking better organized shell for the Discogs app).

So I come upon a track that I like on YouTube, an obscure vinyl rip.

Then I use the discographic app to search up that vinyl record. And the app also displays any videos on YouTube which have rips from that album. Very often the whole album is available to sample that way. And then I buy from the discographic app.

I have to say since getting back into records around 2017 it’s really increase my desire for ownership of music. When I’m sampling the music on YouTube it’s nice and I enjoy the music, but it just feels sort of ephemeral - like just part of the process of surfing the net.

But once I’ve looked up an album on the vinyl apps and sampled it, I get a strong “ I must possess this!” desire that listening on YouTube or streaming just doesn’t fulfil.

(hence I’m just about to order another record….)

And darn it…. Now that this is coming out, the mofi one step 45s of classic Rush albums, starting with Farewell To Kings, if I were still working I’d snapped them up immediately:

Music Direct - Search Results

www.musicdirect.com

 

[MatrixS2000]

what are the first signs of a worn-out cartridge?

You will notice tracking issues, distortion and increased sibilance. Here is a good reference doc regarding wear. A good USB microscope yields excellent inspection cababilities:

 

[dougi]

I just received and fitted a 70s Technics epa-101T plusarm to my music Hall stealth tt. Was able to set it to correct spindle to pivot distance. Aim is to keep for 78 carts, which the deck can spin at. No antiskate setting, but it is working. On left below.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I just received and fitted a 70s Technics epa-101T plusarm to my music Hall stealth tt. Was able to set it to correct spindle to pivot distance. Aim is to keep for 78 carts, which the deck can spin at. No antiskate setting, but it is working. On left below.
View attachment 545370

Since you have a Waxwing, would you mind testing the 331/3 and 45 speed settings.

 

[dougi]

Since you have a Waxwing, would you mind testing the 331/3 and 45 speed settings.

For speed accuracy you mean? Both +0.0% with the Waxwing test. W&F about 0.10 % 2 sigma using the rpm wow app. CW my old (but new to me) Denon dp-50M of ~0.02 %.
The VTA tower is frustrating though. As soon as you loosen the screw, there is rotational play in the tonearm geometry, so you need to check/adjust cartridge alignment every time.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

Here are some results for the AT-lp8x I own. First picture is from the Waxwing and second picture is from the RPM WOW iOS app. Perfect speeds at 33 1/3 and 45 RPMs coming from the Waxwing and .09% Wow (RMS) from the RPM WOW app. Not sure how accurate the RPM WOW app is but that what I got so far. I’ve been listening to a good amount of piano based jazz music and have heard no noticeable wow and flutter.

 

[Thomas_A]

Here is a link to a rip that I would like to get some impression on, especially distortion-wise. @Robin L et al., how does the end of record sound like? It is a record from Telarc which has been commonly used for wear studies, threads on VE. It has shown quite some odd groove traces (looks impossible to track) and also damage patterns when played by microline stylus from AT. Reasons unknown for that. This record have been played 5 times each side with a Shure JICO SAS/B and will be sent to Ray for analysis of any groove damage. Link will be deleted in a week or so.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Robin L]

Here is a link to a rip that I would like to get some impression on, especially distortion-wise. @Robin L et al., how does the end of record sound like? It is a record from Telarc which has been commonly used for wear studies, threads on VE. It has shown quite some odd groove traces (looks impossible to track) and also damage patterns when played by microline stylus from AT. Reasons unknown for that. This record have been played 5 times each side with a Shure JICO SAS/B and will be sent to Ray for analysis of any groove damage. Link will be deleted in a week or so.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Please post performance, catalog # if possible,

 

[Thomas_A]

Pleas post performance, catalog # if possible,

Lorin Maazel & The Cleveland Orchestra - Mussorgsky: Pictures At An Exhibition / Night On Bald Mountain, 1978.
CR00223, Telarc

 

[Bob from Florida]

For speed accuracy you mean? Both +0.0% with the Waxwing test. W&F about 0.10 % 2 sigma using the rpm wow app. CW my old (but new to me) Denon dp-50M of ~0.02 %.
The VTA tower is frustrating though. As soon as you loosen the screw, there is rotational play in the tonearm geometry, so you need to check/adjust cartridge alignment every time.

The VTA tower, are you referring to the stock arm or the arm that was added for 78 playback?

 

[morillon]

Lorin Maazel & The Cleveland Orchestra - Mussorgsky: Pictures At An Exhibition / Night On Bald Mountain, 1978.
CR00223, Telarc

I can't listen to it under ideal conditions—just over the phone... But here, the entire brass section is using that "brassy" timbre-distortion effect—pushing it to the extreme, trombones included—which likely leads to saturation during recording. And, as unfortunately happens in quite a few cases, this coincides with the loudest passages (in classical music)—moments when linear velocity drops and distortion—often significant, unless a linear tracking arm is used—increases.
It’s a perfect storm of issues here... all in same time

the Cleveland brass really went ""overboard"" with it.
undoubtedly driven by Maazel
;-)

 

[mike70]

Here is a link to a rip that I would like to get some impression on, especially distortion-wise. @Robin L et al., how does the end of record sound like? It is a record from Telarc which has been commonly used for wear studies, threads on VE. It has shown quite some odd groove traces (looks impossible to track) and also damage patterns when played by microline stylus from AT. Reasons unknown for that. This record have been played 5 times each side with a Shure JICO SAS/B and will be sent to Ray for analysis of any groove damage. Link will be deleted in a week or so.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

I mentioned that some pages ago in the thread, but doesn't get interest. Also the question of the "right " antiskating setting is something that appears from the topic.
The famous "10 to 15% of VTF"

 

[Thomas_A]

I can't listen to it under ideal conditions—just over the phone... But here, the entire brass section is using that "brassy" timbre-distortion effect—pushing it to the extreme, trombones included—which likely leads to saturation during recording. And, as unfortunately happens in quite a few cases, this coincides with the loudest passages (in classical music)—moments when linear velocity drops and distortion—often significant, unless a linear tracking arm is used—increases.
It’s a perfect storm of issues here... all in same time

the Cleveland brass really went ""overboard"" with it.
undoubtedly driven by Maazel
;-)

I agree it is forced. I recorded all 10 plays, 5 on each side and compared them. It looks a bit odd 1-40 kHz. Seems that the response increases up to 10-15 kHz. And then decrases.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

What are some of thoughts on anti-skating settings? I know it’s recommend to set it to the cartridge tracking force. For mine 2 grams so the anti-skate is around 2. I find that with some records it will immediately skip into the first track. So I will set the anti-skate to around 1.4 and seems to help somewhat. Does it depend on the record and does anyone else experience this as well? Or is it just me because this was an issue for me on my previous turntable.

 

[Bob from Florida]

What are some of thoughts on anti-skating settings? I know it’s recommend to set it to the cartridge tracking force. For mine 2 grams so the anti-skate is around 2. I find that with some records it will immediately skip into the first track. So I will set the anti-skate to around 1.4 and seems to help somewhat. Does it depend on the record and does anyone else experience this as well? Or is it just me because this was an issue for me on my previous turntable.

I use the Frank Schroder/Soundsmith method. With the stylus at the end of the album side, adjust anti-skate until the stylus stays just ahead of the spiral in groove before getting locked into the runout groove.

How Do I Adjust Anti-skating On My Cartridge? | Soundsmith

www.sound-smith.com

From the above link, the critical paragraph.

“For a given VTF (any amount of VTF) – set the A-S so that the arm VERY SLOWLY drifts inwards when placed on the SURFACE (NOT IN A GROOVE) at the end of a record. You will have a moment to do this until the stylus “pops” into the run-out groove.”

 

[Thomas_A]

What are some of thoughts on anti-skating settings? I know it’s recommend to set it to the cartridge tracking force. For mine 2 grams so the anti-skate is around 2. I find that with some records it will immediately skip into the first track. So I will set the anti-skate to around 1.4 and seems to help somewhat. Does it depend on the record and does anyone else experience this as well? Or is it just me because this was an issue for me on my previous turntable.

You can measure it with a scale. 10-15% of VTF is the general rule but I would say a unmodulated or very low modulated groove is around 10% with a ML/MR stylus. The antiskate scale on turntables can be calibrated for 10-20% so without knowing, difficult to say what the setting should be. I’ve also used the Shroeder/Soundsmith method and it seems, at least in my tests, to give similar result. But others may not agree with the method and older studies have shown that different type of stylii have different AS requirement.

 

[mike70]

You can measure it with a scale. 10-15% of VTF is the general rule but I would say a unmodulated or very low modulated groove is around 10% with a ML/MR stylus. The antiskate scale on turntables can be calibrated for 10-20% so without knowing, difficult to say what the setting should be. I’ve also used the Shroeder/Soundsmith method and it seems, at least in my tests, to give similar result. But others may not agree with the method and older studies have shown that different type of stylii have different AS requirement.

the friction is part of the "skating", so a stylus with more contact must have the "antiskating" force a bit higher.

i made certain measurements with a digital scale in my 1200 turntable, and it seems to have more or less 10% of VTF in the antiskating dial ... pretty decent, but ... the measurement isn't very accurate. Specific gadgets like the Skater fromWally Tools or something i think is from Orsonic are crazy expensive.

 

[Robin L]

Lorin Maazel & The Cleveland Orchestra - Mussorgsky: Pictures At An Exhibition / Night On Bald Mountain, 1978.
CR00223, Telarc

Thanks, wanted a direct comparison.

I'm 71. My hearing rolls off a little after 13k. I have no tinnitus.

The monitor chain is an Acer Aspire 5 laptop>Topping E30 DAC>Topping L30 headphone amp>Crinicle Zero 2 @ IEM(s).

First, the all-digital chain. I'm using Tidal: this transfer is Redbook. Then I heard your transfer of the LP.

It is a full step upwards in pitch—say, C to D—compared to the digital source.

Time to get your turntable's speed checked, buddah.

Just sayin"

 

[morillon]

Thanks, wanted a direct comparison.

I'm 71. My hearing rolls off a little after 13k. I have no tinnitus.

The monitor chain is an Acer Aspire 5 laptop>Topping E30 DAC>Topping L30 headphone amp>Crinicle Zero 2 @ IEM(s).

First, the all-digital chain. I'm using Tidal: this transfer is Redbook. Then I heard your transfer of the LP.

It is a full step upwards in pitch—say, C to D—compared to the digital source.

Time to get your turntable's speed checked, buddah.

Just sayin"

View attachment 546010

Doesn't look like it... But I don't know what you should check on your end...
ps C to D..more than 10%.( and impacts the execution speed to the same extent.)
(ps bis
There’s no doubt Thomas-A’s turntable has been checked for speed countless times... and if there are any deviations, they’ll be nowhere near the 10% mark. ;-) )

 

[goat76]

What are some of thoughts on anti-skating settings? I know it’s recommend to set it to the cartridge tracking force. For mine 2 grams so the anti-skate is around 2. I find that with some records it will immediately skip into the first track. So I will set the anti-skate to around 1.4 and seems to help somewhat. Does it depend on the record and does anyone else experience this as well? Or is it just me because this was an issue for me on my previous turntable.

Now I’m a little confused, I thought it was the other way around, that a higher number of anti-skating is needed if the force is strong towards the middle of the record. Isn't that how it works?

I have another question that I have read contradictory information about, where some people have said one thing and others have said the opposite. Is the inside groove (towards the middle of the record) the left or the right channel?