The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Robin L]

That’s really something! Your years of deep experience in the physical media world always amazes me.

And this cracked me up :

but also such jewels as "Who Put the Benzedrine in Mrs. Murphy's Ovaltine" by Harry "The Hipster"

That's Harry "The Hipster" Gibson" to you buddah.

Perfer the flip muh self:

PS: Thanks for recommending YouTube premium.

Recorded 1947, before RCA had tape recorders:

Recorded 1945. I owned the original, sounded like it was recorded in a phone booth:

 

[MattHooper]

Nottingham Analogue Mentor with original Mentor arm

Man, that’s a crazy serious turntable. I had no idea the platter was that big from the earlier photo you posted. You were a man among men

The Graphite loaded top platter renders a disc clamp totally unnecessary although some owners use them through force of habit.

Can you explain why? Usually a disc clamp is to ensure as much contact with the record to the platter, especially if there’s any warping in the record. How does the granite top loaded platter address this?

Also: why did you get rid of it? It wasn’t just the dust issue was it? Did you just move on to CDs?

Even playing a warped record on such a platter, one can literally thump a playing disc and barely a 'tap' gets through to the stylus. The only thing putting me off these days are the numerous dust traps around 'oil-rig' models like this and yours - and our house is incredibly dusty

My house is extremely dusty. But I don’t find that much of an issue with the turntable.

When I first bought it, I went through all sorts of research as to what kind of dust cover to either buy or create. I was gonna have a local guy make a big acrylic one to place over the turntable when not in use. But before I did that I bought a Soundeck platter mat:

It’s a metal constrained layer damping mat.
I found demonstrations like this interesting from the company that makes them:

Anyway, I tried it out and wasn’t sure if I particularly liked the effect. The thing is it was significantly thicker than no mat at all, so that in of itself could’ve been an issue . And admittedly, I was too lazy to get around to adjusting the VTA for the added height of the record.

But anyway, I sort of smacked my forehead, realizing “ oh, I don’t need some big acrylic dust cover! This platter mat right here placed over the platter keeps the platter dust free! So I’ll just keep it on whenever I’m not playing a record.”

It’s especially good for my turntable since my turntable is mostly all platter anyway.

Generally speaking dust doesn’t seem to be attracted much to the vertical surfaces of the turntable. So maybe once every few months I might give it a wipe with a lens cloth to keep everything shiny and new.
And I think the metal platter mat looks right on the big metal turntable:

 

[Robin L]

I brought Pawnshop over to an audio friends house as a test play on a table I had setup for him. After he heard it, he had to have a copy. The reissue was quite a bit more than $5.

Various Artists-Jazz At The Pawnshop-200 Gram Vinyl Record|Acoustic Sounds

Acoustic Sounds Audiophile Vinyl Records

store.acousticsounds.com

I like the album a lot, not sure I would pay $90 for it. Mostly I look for the now rare finds at used record stores, flea markets, thrift stores, etc.

Circa 1985 copies were to be found at High-End audio boutiques and Tower Records for full pop, over $20, as I recall. Find it sonically nice but musically boring. Listen to a lot of jazz, look for the thrills in the playing rather than the sonics.

Like so:

 

[DSJR]

Same as the Naim aro, or are you mixing them up?

A Notts arm couldn't be much more different from the Aro if it tried - the Notts arm has stabilisers, a carbon-loaded (or similar) tube, a proper cueing device and is stable to handle in the manner of a conventional tonearm. In contrast, the Aro had metal armtube (maybe also based on archery, I can't remember), it wobbles all over the place, especially on warped records, is horrible to handle because of it, didn't originally come with a cueing device and had fixed geometry based around the Supex-made Linn Karma and troika pickups. the tonearm exit wore to the amp was an odd screened confection too, sourced in France I recall.

 

[Cote Dazur]

“ oh, I don’t need some big acrylic dust cover!

Your comment made me think of a generic question, inline with some of the TT questions we have been doing here lately.
I am using the dust cover on both my TT, I usually close it when playing records, and if I don't, it is more for aesthetical reason than any other. I did the test many times, in the past, with an assistant, so blindly, open or close, and could never hear a difference.
Do you guys ( and girls ) listen with the cover close, open, removed?

 

[DSJR]

Man, that’s a crazy serious turntable. I had no idea the platter was that big from the earlier photo you posted. You were a man among men





Can you explain why? Usually a disc clamp is to ensure as much contact with the record to the platter, especially if there’s any warping in the record. How does the granite top loaded platter address this?

Also: why did you get rid of it? It wasn’t just the dust issue was it? Did you just move on to CDs?



My house is extremely dusty. But I don’t find that much of an issue with the turntable.

When I first bought it, I went through all sorts of research as to what kind of dust cover to either buy or create. I was gonna have a local guy make a big acrylic one to place over the turntable when not in use. But before I did that I bought a Soundeck platter mat:

View attachment 543550

It’s a metal constrained layer damping mat.
I found demonstrations like this interesting from the company that makes them:

Anyway, I tried it out and wasn’t sure if I particularly liked the effect. The thing is it was significantly thicker than no mat at all, so that in of itself could’ve been an issue . And admittedly, I was too lazy to get around to adjusting the VTA for the added height of the record.

But anyway, I sort of smacked my forehead, realizing “ oh, I don’t need some big acrylic dust cover! This platter mat right here placed over the platter keeps the platter dust free! So I’ll just keep it on whenever I’m not playing a record.”

It’s especially good for my turntable since my turntable is mostly all platter anyway.

Generally speaking dust doesn’t seem to be attracted much to the vertical surfaces of the turntable. So maybe once every few months I might give it a wipe with a lens cloth to keep everything shiny and new.
And I think the metal platter mat looks right on the big metal turntable:

View attachment 543551

I confirm I loved the Mentor, but as with all things on my life, a high mortgage and a money-pit of a car, meant finances weren't available when the Decca pickup went awry (I initially thought it was the arm, but it wasn't!). My few cheaper cartridges just sounded terribly constricted in comparison and I sold it cheap in a moment of significant weakness. I've no idea about the graphite platter except to say it works as I described. I long ago came to realise for good or ill, that a vinyl record seems to like being supported more at the centre than the edge, which contradicts many European decks of the late 60s and 70s, which had quite deep styling? wells in the centre of the platter and mat. I could go on, but maybe to share these thoughts another time.

I then used my still-here direct driven Dual 701 with V15VMR, which had a similar but *smaller* presentation to the Mentor. It still does for me in the main rig, now with different pickups (the VMR stylus was accidentally broken), but of course I'm well aware I'm not getting *everything* that a vinyl record can provide at its very best.

Back then, I could have a thoroughly enjoyable vinyl session and a thoroughly enjoyable CD session, but with the Dual, vinyl is fine until I put a CD on, after which the deck is switched off and dust cover replaced I still love it though - The speed pots have had dry joints sorted, the 'pimpel' is working fine (Auto Dual owners will know where I am here) and the deck runs speed-true with controls set centrally I use a Notts 'Spacemat' on top of the stuck-on hard rubber mat as a subjective nod to my old Mentor, which didn't need an extra mat...

 

[Thomas_A]

A Notts arm couldn't be much more different from the Aro if it tried - the Notts arm has stabilisers, a carbon-loaded (or similar) tube, a proper cueing device and is stable to handle in the manner of a conventional tonearm. In contrast, the Aro had metal armtube (maybe also based on archery, I can't remember), it wobbles all over the place, especially on warped records, is horrible to handle because of it, didn't originally come with a cueing device and had fixed geometry based around the Supex-made Linn Karma and troika pickups. the tonearm exit wore to the amp was an odd screened confection too, sourced in France I recall.

My experience of unipivots are not large but the Moerch UP-4 sounds and measures really good. But it absolutely needs 500 cst silicon oil for damping. I’ve seen videos of other undamped unipivots and they are not stable when playing. Especially if the record is not completely perfect which they seldom are.

 

[DSJR]

My experience of unipivots are not large but the Moerch UP-4 sounds and measures really good. But it absolutely needs 500 cst silicon oil for damping. I’ve seen videos of other undamped unipivots and they are not stable when playing. Especially if the record is not completely perfect which they seldom are.

The Notts Ace arms, Stax UA7 from Jurassic times and the cheapo ProJect Essential mk1 arm, have 'stabilisers' (the proJect has a plastic 'slot' to allow up-down movement in the plane of the tube and stylus (forgive my terrible terminology) but to prevent rocking in terms of azimuth. The (maybe unobtainable) excellent Tiger Paw Javelin tonearm (styling loosely modelled on the ARO) was a superb thing, having a little damping as an option, but gravity centres carefully worked out to prevent wobble. It 'sounded' wonderful on a contemporary Linn LP12 too, even one without the numerous Tiger Paw mods that were available. The site is still active, but no idea as to availability -

Javelin Tone arm | tigerpawaudio

www.tiger-paw.com

The ProJect replacement arm (8.6" effective length) is well under a hundred quid (amazing they can do it at all for thismoney although cost savings are evident obviously). here's what the 'stabiliser' looks like - There's a countersunk 'cone' the pivot point sits in. This pic taken before the arm was rewired (ProJect sell a comlpete loom for this purpose), but the arm isn't usually clamped in place properly for transit by the owners with little turntable experience and the wires get shredded!

Great fun, but very frail t match the low cost when new -

 

[Soniclife]

A Notts arm couldn't be much more different from the Aro if it tried - the Notts arm has stabilisers, a carbon-loaded (or similar) tube, a proper cueing device and is stable to handle in the manner of a conventional tonearm. In contrast, the Aro had metal armtube (maybe also based on archery, I can't remember), it wobbles all over the place, especially on warped records, is horrible to handle because of it, didn't originally come with a cueing device and had fixed geometry based around the Supex-made Linn Karma and troika pickups. the tonearm exit wore to the amp was an odd screened confection too, sourced in France I recall.

It was only the use of an arrow tube I was querying, the aro uses an arrow tube, hence it's name, an arrow tube seems under engineered for NA.
A friend used to have a NA spacedeck with an rb300, it was excellent. Still not sure leaving the motor running all the time, but stalled so it could not spin the platter up was a great idea.

 

[Soniclife]

Do you guys ( and girls ) listen with the cover close, open, removed?

My cover is only up when changing records.

My Rega P9 is designed so the cover rests on an isolated mini outer plinth, to reduce transmission from the lid to the plinth. A Paul Miller measurement years ago seemed to suggest it worked.

 

[Robin L]

My experience of unipivots are not large but the Moerch UP-4 sounds and measures really good. But it absolutely needs 500 cst silicon oil for damping. I’ve seen videos of other undamped unipivots and they are not stable when playing. Especially if the record is not completely perfect which they seldom are.

I remember a "Connoisseur" table I got with a Unipivot arm, around 1977. Felt fiddly, was used to the Grace 707, a nice, secure platform for high compliance cartridges. Like you said, the arms are unstable without damping, too much trouble for me.

"Too much trouble for me" is a leitmotiv you'll be hearing repeatedly from these quarters.

 

[goat76]

Do you guys ( and girls ) listen with the cover close, open, removed?

I remove it when playing records, and always put it back when I no longer use the turntable. I wish I could have it removed all the time, as I prefer the look of the turntable with the cover off.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Your comment made me think of a generic question, inline with some of the TT questions we have been doing here lately.
I am using the dust cover on both my TT, I usually close it when playing records, and if I don't, it is more for aesthetical reason than any other. I did the test many times, in the past, with an assistant, so blindly, open or close, and could never hear a difference.
Do you guys ( and girls ) listen with the cover close, open, removed?

I had a dust cover made of acrylic for my Performance DC table that came off and stored somewhere while the record was playing.

When I purchased the Technics, I continued my practice of removing the dust cover when playing the record. However, fitting the hinges back in the slots is a bit “fiddly”, so one day I just closed the cover while playing a record. To my surprise I did not detect any sonic degradation! Now, I use the cover as intended and all is well in my land of “simplified” playback of vinyl.

 

[sergeauckland]

The only issue I've found with closing the lid on playback is that static electricity on the lid affects tracking weight. I discovered this by accident on day whilst playing an LP I wiped some dust off the lid using a cloth. Immediately the arm jumped up, hit the lid then crashed down onto the LP. Fortunately didn't wreck the stylus, but didn't do a lot of good to the LP. I investigated this subsequently, putting the stylus guard on the cartridge, then using an old record, and found it repeatable.

I then put the stylus down on my stylus balance and noticed a significant change whether the lid was up or down. I haven't investigated whether all turntables do this, but one was enough. Consequently, I now never have the lid down when playing on any of my turntables.

I don't remove the lid, just leave it up and rely on the turntable's isolation.

S.

 

[DSJR]

It was only the use of an arrow tube I was querying, the aro uses an arrow tube, hence it's name, an arrow tube seems under engineered for NA.
A friend used to have a NA spacedeck with an rb300, it was excellent. Still not sure leaving the motor running all the time, but stalled so it could not spin the platter up was a great idea.

A dear and now deceased friend had an original Spacedeck with RB300 and it was this combination that showed me how good (and NOT grey sounding) said tonearm really was. She used it with an AT-F5, the Spacemat (a dense type foam that takes ages to recover if 'squidged') just calming it all down a bit LOVELY!!! No heat or other issues with lower-than-usual motor voltage and said motor never ran warm I remember, even when stopped. Mind you, I always turned off at the wall when not using it. My dealer pal doesn't and his dem models are fine left powered but 'stalled.'

These days and conscious of the dust situation, I need an enclosed dust cover. I recently arm-changed on an 'AceSpace' (Ace to Ace Anna I think it was) and the dust and general grime was significant in the nooks and crannies around the arm...

 

[DSJR]

I don't remove the lid, just leave it up and rely on the turntable's isolation.

S.

Serves you right for tracking at 1g...

Solid plinth decks tend NOT to have much isolation in my experience, whether it be a Technics or a Rega (with everything else in between). Just be sensible here I think. My Rega 3-2000/RB300 still seems more vibration-sensitive with lid down (using iems as well, so not speakers). easy enoug for me to take the lid opff and carefully re-attach it after use.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Do you guys ( and girls ) listen with the cover close, open, removed?

Always off when playing, on when not in use (technics).

 

[MattHooper]

I remember a "Connoisseur" table I got with a Unipivot arm, around 1977. Felt fiddly, was used to the Grace 707, a nice, secure platform for high compliance cartridges. Like you said, the arms are unstable without damping, too much trouble for me.

"Too much trouble for me" is a leitmotiv you'll be hearing repeatedly from these quarters.

My buddy has a VPI turntable that originally came with a unit that originally came with a unipivot arm. I hated using that thing. So fiddly. VPI has moved away from those arms now.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Wiping dust of the cover with a cloth while playing a record on that TT would not have come to my mind.
Seems like recipe for disaster no matter what.
Increasing the static charge inside the cover while whipping outside to the tune of lifting the arm, seems unlikely.
Making the stylus jump a few groove while wiping the cover as the record is playing, yes, I see that as a plausible result.

 

[melloncolliecat]

I always thought I would go for a Linn if I bought a turntable, as my local HiFi store has been a long-running Linn dealer since 1985. It’s just that Linn’s turntables seem to be somewhat complicated to set up with the suspension for the chassis, and I don’t like the idea of having to rely on a dealer. It also seems to be an endless cycle of upgrades, and all these different parts are overwhelming for me as a vinyl beginner. It all looked so much simpler going for a direct-driven Technics, and I’m satisfied with that choice.

The Linn turntables are very beautiful machines, and I wouldn’t mind if my Technics looked like them as fine-looking furniture in my living room. Well, maybe someday…

View attachment 543281

You could always try to find a wood plinth for your Technics - get the best of both worlds.