The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[DSJR]

I'm darned annoyed - Having brought my 12" singles down (they've survived thirty plus years in box-storage very well, using Nagaoka inner sleeves and plastic outer sleeves for the most part), I 've found my Siouxsie & The Banshees 12" mixes (I loved and feared her back then ) and wanted to find the four disc B-Sides CD box (Downside Up). £27 or so when newly released, they ran our years ago and surviving CD sets are now a hundred quid or more. At least some or most are on Youtube, but this influential band remains popular and I'd have thought the record company could run another batch off every so often, surely?

I use the AT607 liquid stylus cleaner only when absolutely necessary (it's been safe on all my styli over the years) and usually a diskwasher cleaner brush gently stroked back to front, which seems to keep fluff and similar off the diamond.

 

[morillon]

...with a few drops of 607... or not..
So classic...


easier "physically," of course, than the 607's brush...
Etc
;-)
( i have oznow, ultrasonic from ortofon ( similare of AT) etc etc
but i use in fact small brush + 607( or not) and magic eraser " strong efficacity" if need... ;-) )

 

[Bob from Florida]

I use on a Onzow Zerodust. As to how often, I would estimate every 5 albums - hard for me to nail it down as it could be several weeks between playing. But the Onzow includes a small magnifying glass built into the box that I use to inspect the stylus before each needle drop.

Also will probably pick up one of these Ultrasonic stylus cleaners once I think about any potential damage the cartridge from the vibration - any thoughts on that from the members?

I also used Zerodust until I read about the residue it can deposit on styli. The followup to the original Fremer article - that caused an uproar about how Fremer and Wally Tools presented the information - is here.

The Onzow Zerodust Controversy Concludes Here (Updated August 29, 2023 With New Instruction)

the new instructions explain it well

trackingangle.com

Zerodust added one additional instruction to their product - replace every 3 years. Short version is: clean only with cold water, keep it covered and away from heat, and replace every 3 years or sooner if it becomes opaque.

I still have mine - kept it for the magnifying cover - and it is definitely no longer clear. Been using the carbon fiber brush after each album side, which works fine.

I need to toss the actual Zerodust cleaning gel and replace it with a cut piece of Magic Eraser in case I want something more aggressive than the carbon brush.

 

[MatrixS2000]

^ thanks for that - did not know about the expiration date. Mine is still clear.

 

[sergeauckland]

I also used Zerodust until I read about the residue it can deposit on styli. The followup to the original Fremer article - that caused an uproar about how Fremer and Wally Tools presented the information - is here.

The Onzow Zerodust Controversy Concludes Here (Updated August 29, 2023 With New Instruction)

the new instructions explain it well

trackingangle.com

Zerodust added one additional instruction to their product - replace every 3 years. Short version is: clean only with cold water, keep it covered and away from heat, and replace every 3 years or sooner if it becomes opaque.

I still have mine - kept it for the magnifying cover - and it is definitely no longer clear. Been using the carbon fiber brush after each album side, which works fine.

I need to toss the actual Zerodust cleaning gel and replace it with a cut piece of Magic Eraser in case I want something more aggressive than the carbon brush.

That box would be perfect for a chunk of Magic Eraser. Never mind the gel, always suspicious of anything that could leave residues on the the stylus. There's a putty that's often promoted. I have used it, and it is effective, but could never be sure it didn't leave a residue that would build up.

S.

 

[jkasch]

I’ve been told drum pad gel is the same substance as Zerodust.

https://a.co/d/0binzJZN

 

[mpw]

I appreciate this thread, I also appreciated the other one, I think it makes ASR a better place, playing records is part of my "HiFi" hobby and is part of many audio enthusiast hobby. So what better place to exchange and courteously discuss why we enjoy it than ASR. One thread will not throw us back to the dark age of audiophoolistry.

I clean my Stylus(s) after every side with this.( the exact same little black brush)

and I also clean my stylus with this (not exact model but very similar) every once in a while. using a drop of the liquid.

Since I only play "clean" records using this

My stylus do not gather much anything when playing.
I also use Nagaoka anti static sleeves,

the records gets out of the sleeve to be played and immediately gets back in the sleeve after being played.
Starting with clean records bypass a lot of LP's inherent "issues".

The days of neglecting LP's are over, specially now that we have digital alternatives that do not require any efforts, for those that find taking care of LP's to be too much hassle.
I believe that the whole ceremonial around involving one self into playing a record is part of the reason we feel differently about hearing our music on LP's so it is no bother for me.
Plus, I have nothing against listening to digital sources if I want a different, very convenient, experience.
That we have now access to different sources, as opposed to when LP was (almost) the only valid choice, makes listening to LP's today a very different concept to me than it was 30 years ago.

Understanding, since I participate in ASR forum, that most of what I hear is subjective, makes me understand that despite understanding that there are "better" options out there (that I use regularly), my enjoyment of records still makes total sense to me.

Good points your made on the discussion. I drive a manual transmission car (97 BMW 318is 5 speed) more modern cars have more tech: with screens,cameras,start/stop,wifi,etc. but the for me there is pleasure in driving a car with a manual rather then an auto. I enjoy vintage camera lens rather newer clinical modern ones. It goes for playing Lp's the ritual is not a bother, the album covers are cool, the sound is what I like. Also I prefer automatic watches rather quartz or digital, prefer coding software rather then using AI. Better or worse is in the eye of the user. Have to admit I prefer a cell phone over a land line !

 

[MattHooper]

I still use a Dust Bug when playing, (what a dear old-fashioned thing I am!) so there's very little dirt on the stylus.

A dust bug interesting! I’ve always been a bit fascinated with those. They seem like an obviously good idea. Is this one where the dust bug is a separate arm and you start a record and first you placed the dust bug arm on the record and then afterwards you dropped your stylus?

I clean my Stylus(s) after every side with this.( the exact same little black brush)

Is that the Ursa Major record brush?

That’s the one I use. It’s easily the best record brush I tested - getting most of the dust off with one wipe. I also use the older audio quest thinner record brush. I use it a record looks really dusty first with the audio quest and then I finished with the ursa major.

Zerodust added one additional instruction to their product - replace every 3 years. Short version is: clean only with cold water, keep it covered and away from heat, and replace every 3 years or sooner if it becomes opaque.

Ah! I did not see that part of the zero dust discussion back when there was the controversy!

I suspect my DS Audio ST50 gel pad is now passed it’s prime as well.

 

[Sal1950]

Nothing wrong on my end - over the years I've taken the effort to make sure my digital playback system can do it. It's not always the case when I visit other people though. We're pretty much past the ripping software being a problem like it was in the early days of mp3, although people sometimes still have old rips with gaps in. UPnP/DLNA still needs both the renderer and the control point to support optional parts of the spec for it to play gapless rips without a gap.

Yes there is. Now it is a fact that some late players have poorly implemented software that breaks proper gapless, but if its an issue at your end, it's your gear.
My favorite music genre is progressive rock, a big home for gapless. And as I said I've never experienced it over the 50 years with either my disc players or ripped file playback.
So if you have a issue, get a different player.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Is that the Ursa Major record brush?

don't know, the picture was to show my stylus brush.

 

[somebodyelse]

Yes there is. Now it is a fact that some late players have poorly implemented software that breaks proper gapless, but if its an issue at your end, it's your gear.

No there isn't. Please re-read my previous post as many times as necessary for it to sink in - my system plays gapless because I've made sure it does. It's only other people's systems that don't.

 

[Sal1950]

No there isn't. Please re-read my previous post as many times as necessary for it to sink in - my system plays gapless because I've made sure it does. It's only other people's systems that don't.

Fine, you made such a deal about Tull - Thick I figured you had a problem at some point.
Simply a problem with CD players with bad written software, correct playback is written into the CD code.

 

[teched58]

Thoughts on things not being either/or.

One thing that confuses me is that there seems (I could be wrong; I said SEEMS) to be a belief that digital and vinyl present an either/or situation. Either you're a digital person who wants that pure brittle (I'm joking!) SOTA sound, or you're a vinyl lover who loves the warm, analog, wow and fluttery old timey cleaning your records way of listening.

I swear there are more than a few posts that are along these lines. A la "I used to listen to vinyl, but once we got CDs and then streaming, I got rid of my records and I never looked back" [EDIT: I am NOT criticizing this; that's close to where I am, except my old records are buried in the closet.] or "I tried digital but it's too brittle and since it's all about the music, I listen to vinyl and stop telling me it has wow and flutter and pops and clicks; I don't care."

So my question is, Is it really and either/or situation? Do most folks look at it this way?

Personally, I listen almost exclusively digital. Until very recently it was mostly CDs. (Plus blu rays when there's a great multichannel offering, like the recent, fantastic 50th anniversary stereo/quad/atmos Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here.) But about a year ago I got Apple Music and quite frankly the convenience and the breadth of the library have made things so convenient that that's what I use 90% the time. {EDIT: Re the catalog breadth: I would never buy Britney Spears's "Toxic." I'd be embarrassed. But as I guilty pleasure I have to admit I've listened to it a few times.]

On the vinyl front, I've restored several turntables over the past five years (since I'm a retired engineer and electronics geek) and I have a TT connected to my main 5.1 system, and I still occasionally listen to a record. Mostly Beatles, for nostalgia purposes.

So for me, I completely recognize the technical superiority of digital versus vinyl. (Don't hit me! I've said throughout this post that I LIKE VINYL.) But I don't hate vinyl and I've never abandoned it completely. Though it's a nostalgia listen for me, both the records and the technology.

Anyway, as a person who was prominently in the news some 33 years ago famously said, "People, can we all just get along?"

 

[mpw]

Thoughts on things not being either/or.

One thing that confuses me is that there seems (I could be wrong; I said SEEMS) to be a belief that digital and vinyl present an either/or situation. Either you're a digital person who wants that pure brittle (I'm joking!) SOTA sound, or you're a vinyl lover who loves the warm, analog, wow and fluttery old timey cleaning your records way of listening.

I swear there are more than a few posts that are along these lines. A la "I used to listen to vinyl, but once we got CDs and then streaming, I got rid of my records and I never looked back" [EDIT: I am NOT criticizing this; that's close to where I am, except my old records are buried in the closet.] or "I tried digital but it's too brittle and since it's all about the music, I listen to vinyl and stop telling me it has wow and flutter and pops and clicks; I don't care."

So my question is, Is it really and either/or situation? Do most folks look at it this way?

Personally, I listen almost exclusively digital. Until very recently it was mostly CDs. (Plus blu rays when there's a great multichannel offering, like the recent, fantastic 50th anniversary stereo/quad/atmos Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here.) But about a year ago I got Apple Music and quite frankly the convenience and the breadth of the library have made things so convenient that that's what I use 90% the time. {EDIT: Re the catalog breadth: I would never buy Britney Spears's "Toxic." I'd be embarrassed. But as I guilty pleasure I have to admit I've listened to it a few times.]

On the vinyl front, I've restored several turntables over the past five years (since I'm a retired engineer and electronics geek) and I have a TT connected to my main 5.1 system, and I still occasionally listen to a record. Mostly Beatles, for nostalgia purposes.

So for me, I completely recognize the technical superiority of digital versus vinyl. (Don't hit me! I've said throughout this post that I LIKE VINYL.) But I don't hate vinyl and I've never abandoned it completely. Though it's a nostalgia listen for me, both the records and the technology.

Anyway, as a person who was prominently in the news some 33 years ago famously said, "People, can we all just get along?"

Right, some people like both digital and vinyl as some just like one format. It depends how one likes to listen to music and the sound that appeals to one. I prefer listening to vinyl because I like the way the music sounds to me it just sounds more 'real. others like a more clean,detailed,neutral,clinical and more convenient way of listening to music. In today's modern world with everything digital/computers/AI listening to vinyl is breath of fresh air in the fading analog world.

Why do many people love automatic watches vs. quartz/digital, why do people prefer vintage character camera lens vs. modern more detailed/clinical ones, people like a specific format because it resonates with oneself. I prefer reading books that I can hold rather then reading them from an Ipad, which is better ?

When I meet friends for a run with my 97 BMW 318is manual car they still laugh and say "still driving that old car, come on you can afford to get a new modern one". The 318is gives me lots pleasure even though science would say that a modern car is the better choice to own for many reasons. People make choices on things that science can't measure which makes them human rather then machines.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I am a vinyl enthusiast in the sense that I like spending time listening to music from my records but I would be very upset and sad to loose access to the music I have on my hard drive (and I have a lot), on my CD,s (ok they are also on my hard drive, but playing them on my CD player is also fun), or Streaming for all the music that I do not have other wise.
I could live without the vinyl ( but why would I since I don’t have to) but could not live without my digital sources.
Some people decided to stop using or listening to their records, it make sense to me, digital is all you need really. If you stopped having fun listening to records why would anyone keep doing it. Records where a must have 30 years ago, but today they are a nice to have ( for some).

 

[MattHooper]

So my question is, Is it really and either/or situation? Do most folks look at it this way?

As far as I can tell, it’s not an either or situation for any of us here. I believe everybody here who owns a turntable also owns a digital front end. I go back-and-forth: one night I might be listening to my ripped CDs or streaming, the next night I might be playing records. Or I might mix it up on a single night.

As I’ve said before, it’s my opinion, based on my own experience with my systems and hearing other audiophile’s systems (and I have friends who review lots of high-end audio), that the vast majority of “ sound quality” comes from the quality of the loudspeakers, and then the careful implementation of good loudspeakers - attention paid to loudspeaker and listener position and room acoustics - throw in room correction if you want. From there, it’s generally easy to use a proper amplifier, and effortless to find a digital front end that is neutral.

Between vinyl and digital, the speaker choice and implementation is doing by far most of the work to produce impressive sound. (Especially if you have a good-quality turntable/cartridge). Relative to the contribution of speakers/room, the differences between the digital and record playback is more subtle. (Unless perhaps you possess a lot of crappy sounding records).

When I play demos for guests they don’t know or care whether they’re listening to a vinyl source or a digital source… it all sounds amazing to them…. Because it’s the quality of the speakers and the room set up and the great acoustics in the room, leading them to hear a high sound quality.

I could live without the vinyl ( but why would I since I don’t have to) but could not live without my digital sources.

Oh man, that’s a tough one!

If I was forced to choose between giving up my vinyl record collection or streaming and my ripped CD collection…

On one hand, I’m getting overall more pleasure playing records.

On the other hand, records are limiting. I only have so much space. I’ve put a limit at around 1000 records which I already have.
Not all music I would be interested in is on vinyl. I would be sort of stuck listening to only my record collection. Although I could add to it slow slowly over over time.

Whereas of course, streaming would supply an endless amount of new music possibilities that I would like to have available. And there’s tons of my CDs that I love as well.

It’s kind of a funny thing the way streaming and digital access to music has changed the equation. Here I am worrying about some limitations on a music collection in terms of records, and yet that’s the way most people experienced owning music before streaming came along. I already have a much larger record collection than most people had back in those days so why would it make sense to complain about that not being enough?
We are quite spoiled now.



Anyway, I’m glad I don’t have to choose none of us do.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Between vinyl and digital, the speaker choice and implementation is doing by far most of the work to produce impressive sound.

Amen to that brother.

Anyway, I’m glad I don’t have to choose none of us do.

Indeed, we are fortunate none of us do, even though, sometime, with post of people acting like we do, it makes me wonder what the aggression is about.

Not a bad sound track either.

 

[mpw]

Amen to that brother.

Indeed, we are fortunate none of us do, even though, sometime, with post of people acting like we do, it makes me wonder what the aggression is about.

Not a bad sound track either.

It is just the natural human condition that people want to think that they know more then others, its sad but true. You can't go wrong with music by George Martin !

 

[MattHooper]

Amen to that brother.

Indeed, we are fortunate none of us do, even though, sometime, with post of people acting like we do, it makes me wonder what the aggression is about.

Not a bad sound track either.

I was literally just listening to Paul McCartney’s live and let die a couple days ago and absolutely revelling in it! It is such a masterpiece.

And it represents the type of balls to the wall big band, big dynamics that I love.

I’ve always been amazed at the power of that piece and especially the sound and the recording. I was just reading that apparently it was not recorded with everybody playing separately, but it was more of an off the floor everybody playing at the same time recording. That’s what it sounds like. And it has that type of energy.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

I was literally just listening to Paul McCartney’s live and let die a couple days ago and absolutely revelling in it! It is such a masterpiece.

And it represents the type of balls to the wall big band, big dynamics that I love.

I’ve always been amazed at the power of that piece and especially the sound and the recording. I was just reading that apparently it was not recorded with everybody playing separately, but it was more of an off the floor everybody playing at the same time recording. That’s what it sounds like. And it has that type of energy.

Is that the live Wings Over America version? I have a nice minty version my dad gave me. Might have to give that a spin soon.