The cliches of subjective audiophilia...

[Victor Martell]

After seeing a post of someone stating that he possessed technical credentials, then proceeded to make a subjective argument... it kind of reminded me that this is a pattern that I see often. So instead of picking a beef with a specific forum member, decided to make a new post... and check if you see what I see, agree that they are repeating patterns... let's call them cliches

1.- First, the one from the intro. It always starts the same... "I am an academic|engineer|expert" BUT decided to "LISTEN" and the difference is obvious... The first thing I think is... "argument by authority". The fact that is by his own authority... that is just funny - I call it "argument by own's dubious authority". Because I gotta tell you the truth, in the internet, nobody knows you are a dog... I just know the person is, in all probability, just lying about having credentials... is all about sustaining an unsustainable argument...

2.- Another one (and a related one) is "well, I did not believe there could be a difference, but then I LISTENED... and I was surprised!" - again - the argument is that to listen, and therefore, to trust that the human fallible senses, trump any science, measurements,etc.

3.- Oh the poor wife! - "My wife could tell the difference from the kitchen" Sexism notwithstanding ( really... from the kitchen? every time?) again, same logical fallacy... argument by authority. In this case, "argument by disinterested authority" - guess that by the nature of normally not being an audiophile, the spouse is by default conferred the authority of an impartial observer. It does feel like it actually never happened... sometimes I doubt there is a wife!

All of the above, the real argument is that subjective listening is capable to detect differences where measurements and the science show there is none...

4.- Another one is the audiophile that accepts that digital is digital is incontrovertible... but then proceeds to state that it is the analog electronics around it are the culprits of possible differences and/or degradation. Their weirdest argument is that digital technically does not exist... that is, given that we are using voltages to represent binary digits, we are subject to the vagaries of analog electronics (ignoring, of course, error correction, etc)... This is very often, the Uptone and/or Sonore fan.

5.- Last but not least, the Dunning-Kruger - convinced of his (and mostly a him) superior insight, hearing, knowledge, analytical capabilities... best example is a certain > 60 year old European YouTuber, claiming to "detect a reduction in soundstage", probably due to "time smearing" with "noise from the analog circuitry" as the culprit...

Am I missing others?

v

 

[SIY]

Subjective =/= uncontrolled. As soon as we fall into that common verbal trap, fuzzy thinking results. Subjective is fine, uncontrolled is worthy of suspicion.

I should also mention that the vast majority of engineers are not trained and/or have no experience in sensory science. And it shows.

 

[Victor Martell]

Subjective =/= uncontrolled.

Often it is both!

v

 

[andyc56]

3.- Oh the poor wife! - "My wife could tell the difference from the kitchen" Sexism notwithstanding ( really... from the kitchen? every time?) again, same logical fallacy... argument by authority. In this case, "argument by disinterested authority" - guess that by the nature of normally not being an audiophile, the spouse is by default conferred the authority of an impartial observer. It does feel like it actually never happened... sometimes I doubt there is a wife!

My personal favorite is "My Mom could hear the difference [...] from the other room while doing dishes!"

Sometimes even dogs get in on the action.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

I should also mention that the vast majority of engineers are not trained and/or have no experience in sensory science. And it shows.

I am glad you only say, "vast majority" and not "all". Part of the problem is anyone can call themselves an engineer. Proper tertiary qualifications (bachelor degree) will ensure they have indeed covered much of the basic science as well. It is a requirement. Note also that it is common to include subjects in related fields as electives. The Engineer you disparage might have qualifications and experience far beyond your assumptions.

 

[levimax]

Your equipment is not resolving enough to hear the difference.... mine is.

 

[SIY]

I am glad you only say, "vast majority" and not "all". Part of the problem is anyone can call themselves an engineer. Proper tertiary qualifications (bachelor degree) will ensure they have indeed covered much of the basic science as well. It is a requirement. Note also that it is common to include subjects in related fields as electives. The Engineer you disparage might have qualifications and experience far beyond your assumptions.

Yes, perhaps if I had more experience around degreed engineers, I'd have a better appreciation for their general span of knowledge.

 

[GDK]

“It could not have been unconscious bias because I thought I would prefer the other one more.”

 

[JeffS7444]

Pretty much any sonic claims about the merits of "hi-res" digital not attributable to remastering.

 

[Apesbrain]

Subjective is fine...

Subjective is NOT fine when it is applied upon others. Subjective is, by definition, personal experience and opinion. Just because someone likes component A, does not mean everyone should like component A or be wrong.

The Engineer you disparage might have qualifications and experience far beyond your assumptions.

Being an engineer in no way bestows special credibility when it comes to opinions on how something sounds.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

Pretty much any sonic claims about the merits of "hi-res" digital not attributable to remastering.

Could not agree more !

 

[0bs3rv3r]

Subjective is NOT fine when it is applied upon others. Subjective is, by definition, personal experience and opinion. Just because someone likes component A, does not mean everyone should like component A or be wrong.

Being an engineer in no way bestows special credibility when it comes to opinions on how something sounds.

But the intelligent engineer might know not to express hogwash opinions about it in the first place

 

[MaxBuck]

Yes, perhaps if I had more experience around degreed engineers, I'd have a better appreciation for their general span of knowledge.

As someone with advanced engineering degrees, let me just say that with more experience you'd appreciate just how narrow is the typical engineer's "span of general knowledge." We don't tend to color much outside the lines that our career choices dictate.

 

[SIY]

As someone with advanced engineering degrees, let me just say that with more experience you'd appreciate just how narrow is the typical engineer's "span of general knowledge." We don't tend to color much outside the lines that our career choices dictate.

Yes, perhaps if I had more experience around degreed engineers, I'd have a better appreciation for their lack of general span of knowledge.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

As someone with advanced engineering degrees, let me just say that with more experience you'd appreciate just how narrow is the typical engineer's "span of general knowledge." We don't tend to color much outside the lines that our career choices dictate.

Speak for yourself Seriously, I have always had a huge interest in many related and non-related fields. If I had stuck with just what my job needed, I would have died of boredom. I made sure that career choices and personal endeavours expanded my knowledge and experience as much as possible. Guess I am not a "typical engineer". Odd, though, I have a few friends, also engineers, and like me, they like broad horizons.

 

[Vini darko]

Having expensive high end test gear sitting on a shelf to gesture at when making nonsense assertions about gear but zero measurments to back said assertions

 

[Inner Space]

Speak for yourself Seriously, I have always had a huge interest in many related and non-related fields. If I had stuck with just what my job needed, I would have died of boredom. I made sure that career choices and personal endeavours expanded my knowledge and experience as much as possible. Guess I am not a "typical engineer". Odd, though, I have a few friends, also engineers, and like me, they like broad horizons.

I was on the creative and operational side of the studio world, and in the natural course of things had close relationships and friendships with dozens of engineers, and two things were universally true: a) their knowledge was pretty broad; and b) they were all batshit crazy about something.

 

[Lawyrup843]

My favorite part of this post is the wife comment……. I have seen it in at least one review of every product I’ve researched on Amazon & Crutchfield. LOVE IT!

 

[Yuhasz01]

After seeing a post of someone stating that he possessed technical credentials, then proceeded to make a subjective argument... it kind of reminded me that this is a pattern that I see often. So instead of picking a beef with a specific forum member, decided to make a new post... and check if you see what I see, agree that they are repeating patterns... let's call them cliches

1.- First, the one from the intro. It always starts the same... "I am an academic|engineer|expert" BUT decided to "LISTEN" and the difference is obvious... The first thing I think is... "argument by authority". The fact that is by his own authority... that is just funny - I call it "argument by own's dubious authority". Because I gotta tell you the truth, in the internet, nobody knows you are a dog... I just know the person is, in all probability, just lying about having credentials... is all about sustaining an unsustainable argument...

2.- Another one (and a related one) is "well, I did not believe there could be a difference, but then I LISTENED... and I was surprised!" - again - the argument is that to listen, and therefore, to trust that the human fallible senses, trump any science, measurements,etc.

3.- Oh the poor wife! - "My wife could tell the difference from the kitchen" Sexism notwithstanding ( really... from the kitchen? every time?) again, same logical fallacy... argument by authority. In this case, "argument by disinterested authority" - guess that by the nature of normally not being an audiophile, the spouse is by default conferred the authority of an impartial observer. It does feel like it actually never happened... sometimes I doubt there is a wife!

All of the above, the real argument is that subjective listening is capable to detect differences where measurements and the science show there is none...

4.- Another one is the audiophile that accepts that digital is digital is incontrovertible... but then proceeds to state that it is the analog electronics around it are the culprits of possible differences and/or degradation. Their weirdest argument is that digital technically does not exist... that is, given that we are using voltages to represent binary digits, we are subject to the vagaries of analog electronics (ignoring, of course, error correction, etc)... This is very often, the Uptone and/or Sonore fan.

5.- Last but not least, the Dunning-Kruger - convinced of his (and mostly a him) superior insight, hearing, knowledge, analytical capabilities... best example is a certain > 60 year old European YouTuber, claiming to "detect a reduction in soundstage", probably due to "time smearing" with "noise from the analog circuitry" as the culprit...

Am I missing others?

v

Good observations.

I am always curious abut listeners comments. First, how old are they? Equipment /sources used? Type/ genre of musics used for listening? Room speakers or headphones used?

All listening chaps should state their age and tested listening range(a handicap number). I am a 73 year old male and I hear slightly different than my 16year old daughter… the differences are quite smaller with acoustic jazz and choral music.

 

[MattHooper]

Even my wife, who has no interest in audio, remarked that this thread was excellent.