• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

The Case For AVRs... Am I missing something???

Do you have more use for a good stereo amplifier or an AVR?

  • AVR

    Votes: 74 62.7%
  • Stereo Amplifier

    Votes: 44 37.3%

  • Total voters
    118

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
20,750
Likes
20,760
Location
Canada
this thread is progressing to stereo vs AVR argument instead. They have their own strenghts and weaknesses and cater for different marketd and different needs. Why is there even a debate about which is better??
When one has 4 JBL tower speakers (or is it more?) in surround sound with multiple dedicated Adcom amps it must sound pretty good compared to a lowly 2 ch stereo. Looking at you @Sal1950 :D
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,073
Likes
16,608
Location
Central Fl
When one has 4 JBL tower speakers (or is it more?) in surround sound with multiple dedicated Adcom amps it must sound pretty good compared to a lowly 2 ch stereo. Looking at you @Sal1950
Gee thanks bud, ;) but that was the whole point I tried to make. Isn't speaker quality and room treatment immensely more important that a few SINAD points. And when we worry about a AVR's weakness in amp power, again the speaker and it's sensitivity play the biggest roll in it's importance.

However, i dont understand why this thread is progressing to stereo vs AVR argument instead.
I don't believe we're going far OT at all, the thread is based on AVR's "what am I missing". My post above basicly states "almost nothing". How audible the AVR's failing have been in measurements is subtle in the extreme and highly dependent on speaker quality and design.

Stereo or Multich, They both have the exact same goals, to reproduce the source as accurately as possible.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
20,750
Likes
20,760
Location
Canada
Gee thanks bud, ;) but that was the whole point I tried to make. Isn't speaker quality and room treatment immensely more important that a few SINAD points. And when we worry about a AVR's weakness in amp power, again the speaker and it's sensitivity play the biggest roll in it's importance.


I don't believe we're going far OT at all, the thread is based on AVR's "what am I missing". My post above basicly states "almost nothing". How audible the AVR's failing have been in measurements is subtle in the extreme and highly dependent on speaker quality and design.

Stereo or Multich, They both have the exact same goals, to reproduce the source as accurately as possible.
I think that the speaker efficiency Vs the wattage of AVRs has gotten out of proportion. People cringe at 75-100W/ch now and expect huge wattage numbers in order to get any response from some of these small inefficient speakers. A efficient multiple tower system like @Sal1950 has is the bees knees compared to a small multiple speaker system with large wattage supporting them. It also helps having dedicated amps running too for those days when it gets heavy and hard. Where did all this go wrong? How did we get here to where small speakers are prevalent and high wattage AVRs are required? I think the audio market needs a awakening regarding speaker size and abilities.
 

Thomas_A

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
3,422
Likes
2,407
Location
Sweden
The case against AVRs: Size.

In reality there is only one option for a small AVRs. Marantz.

Come on Denon!
 
Last edited:

teched58

Active Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
185
Likes
402
<snip>
The myth of dedicated stereo sounding better than multich is just that, a myth.
<snip>

THIS! I have a 10-year-old Pioneer budget AVR in my living room in a 5.1 set up with a pair of Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2s as the front L/R and a budget Elac subwoofer. It blows aways the fancy 2ch stereo I use for music in my bedroom (even tho I still love the 2ch and it's perfectly fine).

Oh and also the "faux surround" on the AVR, which is used when there isn't a native surround signal, beats actual stereo every time (i.e. if you take any recording and compare the "real" stereo to the "fake" surround).

I agree with Sal that it's a complete myth that stereo sounds better. I think this myth is perpetuated by the boomer crowd (aging Sterophile readers and/or new inductees in the "vinyl is the best format cause it has infinite resolution crowd)." I myself am a boomer and an EE, so I'm not just criticizing the old guys club, I'm a member (h/t hairclub for men).

I value Amir's SINAD measurements and in general believe that gear that measures better IS better 99/9% of the time. That said, my ears certainly can't tell the difference in real-world usage. Also, it's really nice to have that remote control and not to have to get up all the time to fiddle with settings and sources, etc.
 

fun

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
106
THIS! I have a 10-year-old Pioneer budget AVR in my living room in a 5.1 set up with a pair of Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2s as the front L/R and a budget Elac subwoofer. It blows aways the fancy 2ch stereo I use for music in my bedroom (even tho I still love the 2ch and it's perfectly fine).

Oh and also the "faux surround" on the AVR, which is used when there isn't a native surround signal, beats actual stereo every time (i.e. if you take any recording and compare the "real" stereo to the "fake" surround).

I agree with Sal that it's a complete myth that stereo sounds better. I think this myth is perpetuated by the boomer crowd (aging Sterophile readers and/or new inductees in the "vinyl is the best format cause it has infinite resolution crowd)." I myself am a boomer and an EE, so I'm not just criticizing the old guys club, I'm a member (h/t hairclub for men).

I value Amir's SINAD measurements and in general believe that gear that measures better IS better 99/9% of the time. That said, my ears certainly can't tell the difference in real-world usage. Also, it's really nice to have that remote control and not to have to get up all the time to fiddle with settings and sources, etc.
I have similar experience. Recently I migrated my HT setup from 5.1 to 5.1.4. Now I listen to all stereo source music in Auro 3D Upmix mode. Soundstage is wider and taller, while imaging is more natural with more hints of 3D. The additional amplification channels and immersive audio capabilities of my new Denon AVR made this happen, and of course the improvements from EQ is a major factor too.
 
Last edited:

Pdxwayne

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2020
Messages
3,219
Likes
1,172
I used to mostly listen to stereo using Maranta AV 8801 Preamp feeding 4 Parasound Halo series stereo amps to do 7.2 "all channel stereo" mode. The AV preamp and amps retailed for $8500. I liked it a lot. What bothered me was the often observed harsh highs and the lack of sub bass clarity and feels. No, xt32 room eq did not really help.

With the help of ASR, I added a low cost, but transparent preamp to my stereo only setup. I am amazed at how much better my 2.2 stereo setup sounds now. Chain is Node2i to Gustard X16 to Sabaj A10h. I would say I enjoy stereo music with this chain a lot more than my 7.2 setup. Note that my speakers, subs, and amp retailed for ~$13.5K and located in a large room. So YMMV.....
 
Last edited:

Ken1951

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Messages
850
Likes
1,775
Location
Blacksburg, VA
I never listen in 2 ch stereo. I do have an Adcom GFA555 powering my L/R in the Great Room setup though while Yamaha AVR powers the center, rear, and surround. In the master BR another Yamaha AVR runs Focal L/R/C and mini Paradigm rears. In the GR I listen in 7.1 stereo and in the BR 5.1 stereo. Sounds really good to me. Open and airy with a nice soundstage - pardon the subjective jargon ;). It'll be AVRs for me in both places now and going forward. I've never had any problems with Yamaha AVRs. Stream Pandora through the TV into the AVR or iTunes via Airplay the same way. Easy, convenient and as I said - sounds good to us.
 

hex168

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
396
Likes
338
Look, if you disregard all the SINADs, music with full dynamics can never be reproduced by AVRs. Low level listening… yeah, ma be.

I ran a FR sweep through my KEF R11s to get 105dB at 1 meter in room. My McIntosh MC462, which in most listening levels idles at 5-20 watts, maxed over 700 watts during the sweep. Good luck having this kind of response from an AVR.

I came to a realization that speaker FR can be corrected by EQ, but speaker compression and amplifier clipping/ headroom deficiency can never be corrected.
You are right. It means the AVR needs ~9dB more efficient speakers.

Edit: About 6dB more efficency needed for stereo, assuming a Denon 4700 and 4 ohm speakers. For multi-channel or Auro 3D you could have more speakers to help acheive 105dB in-room. It gets complicated because the power per channel drops as you add speakers, but you gain output by adding speakers. I do not know what the typical ratio of power needed is for L/C/R/Surround/Height Surround.
 
Last edited:

gags11

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 8, 2019
Messages
356
Likes
528
Humm, your KEF's are rated at 90 db/w/1meter, 105db should only take 31.623 watts??? 2 and 2 isn't adding up to 4 here?
Maybe I'm too buzzed to do my math correctly tonight.

Well, if you consider the DSP and boost at certain frequencies, in addition to the dip in impedance, you can easily get there.

In fact, this happens only when the frequency sweep passes over 100hz
 

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,751
Likes
5,910
Location
PNW
I used to mostly listen to stereo using Maranta AV 8801 Preamp feeding 4 Parasound Halo series stereo amps to do 7.2 "all channel stereo" mode. The AV preamp and amps retailed for $8500. I liked it a lot. What bothered me was the often observed harsh highs and the lack of sub bass clarity and feels. No, xt32 room eq did not really help.

With the help of ASR, I added a low cost, but transparent preamp to my stereo only setup. I am amazed at how much better my 2.2 stereo setup sounds now. Chain is Node2i to Gustard X16 to Sabaj A10h. I would say I enjoy stereo music with this chain a lot more than my 7.2 setup. Note that my speakers, subs, and amp retailed for ~$13.5K and located in a large room. So YMMV.....

Why use an all channel stereo mode?
 

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,751
Likes
5,910
Location
PNW
I'm thinking that a lot of us who use an AVR for music also use a separate amp for the mains through the preamp outs.

I don't need to, but I have a coupla spare amps so I put 'em to use in my main setup, but several others I don't, but my listening levels these days I don't need the external amps for my speakers/use.
 

Pdxwayne

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2020
Messages
3,219
Likes
1,172
Why use an all channel stereo mode?
As compared to other modes, I like it the most in my large room. At that time I like it loud. It was the loudest without sounding stressed.

In my smaller room, where my surround speakers are closer to me, that mode may not be the best.
 

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,751
Likes
5,910
Location
PNW
As compared to other modes, I like it the most in my large room. At that time I like it loud. It was the loudest without sounding stressed.

In my smaller room, where my surround speakers are closer to me, that mode may not be the best.

I just never care for the multich stereo options except during maybe a party....surround is better. If all you want is loud yes the multich stereo modes will be louder but comes with acoustic issues...
 

Pdxwayne

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2020
Messages
3,219
Likes
1,172
I just never care for the multich stereo options except during maybe a party....surround is better. If all you want is loud yes the multich stereo modes will be louder but comes with acoustic issues...
Yeah, indeed I needed to make lots of adjustments to make it sound good for stereo music in my 5000+ cubic feet room. Once those adjustments made, it was not optimal for movie anymore. Now I simply left both of my 5.1 setups in surround mode when listening to stereo music.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom