The Case For AVRs... Am I missing something???

[gags11]

I understand watts, but I don't completely understand how volts play into things. How would 2, 4, and 5V affect performance? Thanks!

Your initial posts is comparing SINAD of power amplifiers, which output energy in watts to speakers, to SINAD of DAC function of AVRs, which output mainly volts.

If you look at the SINAD of the amplifier section of say Denon x8500h, it has 88dB SINAD in the best performing channel, which is much less than its DAC SINAD of 103dB.

 

[Chromatischism]

I actually suspect that the proportion of people on ASR who are committed home theater junkies is quite low, compared to hi-fi fans. Certainly compared to a place like AVS, where HT-first or dual-use systems are a lot more common. An AVR is a pretty good compromise for dual use and anyone obsessing over SINAD numbers for movie playback is lost in the weeds. But if your interests are firmly on hi-fi, an AVR looks like a fairly obnoxious proposition for someone who just wants a high performance two channel system with room correction.

It looks too big and over-speced for the intended use, I agree. But if you're really researching you keep on coming back to them because there just doesn't seem to be...

It feels like there's a market for a simple integrated stereo receiver with simple digital inputs (3x HDMI 2x Toslink 2x RCA or some such) with very high end amplification (NCore NC502MP type of thing), total SINAD in the 100 dB range and Dirac onboard. I mean not a huge one, but there are so many other stupid low volume products out there, how much worse could it be? But it falls awkwardly between the two worlds.

...the kinds of integrated amps with room correction that we are looking for.

• Stereo amps: NCore NC252MP and NC502MP flavors
• 2 independent subwoofer outputs
• No speaker preouts (not needed)
• Room EQ with FIR filtering and auto dual sub integration
• A competent DAC
• Headphone output?
• Bass management options like AVRs
• A few HDMI inputs, toslink, RCA, coax
• Good remote control
• WiFi
• Streaming optional; Denon would likely include HEOS, MiniDSP would likely include Volumio

It would be the size of a Schiit Magnius or Modius and would be very efficient.

The problem is that economics of scale would probably push such a product into ranges we aren't comfortable with. Based on the prices of Denon X3700H and MiniDSP SHD Power, it's possible this would be a $1500 product. I would love to see one for $500-800 I could put on my desktop but Im not sure what needs to be cut to get it there. You would probably have to jettison the WiFI, streaming, HDMI inputs (licensing fees cost $), the headphone amp, and maybe take the amp down to NC122MP or make it preout-only, intended to be used with powered desktop speakers.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

I’m using a Pioneer SVX-LX503 AVR as a processor, feeding self-powered speakers and subs in 7.1.4 system. It sounds decent for the price used that way, but I wish there were some more affordable dedicated processors on the market. I’d rather invest in better performance and not pay for amplifiers that I’ll never use. Right now, an “upgrade” to a Denon AVR seems like the only alternative.

 

[MCH]

Stereo because i don't watch movies and because avrs are big and ugly.

 

[valerianf]

If you like watching movies then you will need an AVR to get multichannel sound and room correction.
From there the question is do you need a stereo system to listen music?
If you listen stereo music in stereo then a specialized hardware should give a better result if well designed.
But if you are listening a multichannel soundtrack, up mixing the stereo music or watching a recorded concert video then you need an AVR.
I am still looking for an AVR that is very good with music as I only got an AVR.
May be the next one...

 

[JSmith]

• Stereo amps: NCore NC252MP and NC502MP flavors
• 2 independent subwoofer outputs
• No speaker preouts (not needed)
• Room EQ with FIR filtering and auto dual sub integration
• A competent DAC
• Headphone output?
• Bass management options like AVRs
• A few HDMI inputs, toslink, RCA, coax
• Good remote control
• WiFi
• Streaming optional; Denon would likely include HEOS, MiniDSP would likely include Volumio

Still too much in one box for my liking, much prefer the amp to be separate... but sure, all the rest could be in one box, but then that basically is an AVP minus multichannel.

I definitely think there is a big market for digital input integrated amps with EQ and bass management... oh and some damn VU meters please!



JSmith

 

[Pdxwayne]

I have AVR from Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer and AV Preamp from Marantz. They are fine for movies. For music, so far none could provide the enjoyments I get from my stereo setup.

 

[Chrispy]

Personally went from analog 2ch separates to avrs without missing anything on the limited 2ch stuff but sure did like multich options and digital options that opened up. Basic sq differences? Meh

 

[Chromatischism]

Still too much in one box for my liking, much prefer the amp to be separate... but sure, all the rest could be in one box, but then that basically is an AVP minus multichannel.

I definitely think there is a big market for digital input integrated amps with EQ and bass management... oh and some damn VU meters please!

I have no need for the amp to be separate as long as it's the right amp. This would be for a 2.1 system not connected to a PC.

Now, at a PC connected to powered monitors, then yes, please give me an amp-less stereo desktop Denon/Audyssey box

The one thing I'll add there is that with the PC you can do even better EQ. However, you need bass management and that's still easiest to do with the box.

Yes there is Dirac, but the license cost is prohibitive and those units tend to lack important features like uhh, a DAC? Looking at you, SHD Studio.

 

[JSmith]

I have no need for the amp to be separate as long as it's the right amp.

IMO too much in one box is a problem... hence the measurements on the majority of AVR's, although the video processing is likely a liability there. But hey, it can probably be done well with proper design... @JohnYang1997 here is a challenge for you/Topping.



JSmith

 

[David Harper]

The versatility and functionality of an AVR dwarfs the potential of a stereo amp. You can have the stereo amp for music if you feel it's necessary and a good AVR for the other 90% of home entertainment possibilities.

 

[krabapple]

Gotta love how several here simply repeat the mantra 'stereo gear is certainly better than an AVR at the same price point' when examples of Amir's results to the contrary are right up there at the start of the thread,

 

[escksu]

I dont understand how does this become a stereo vs avr when they are catering for different markets. Is it you folks ran out of things to argue about???..

 

[Martin]

I did not answer the poll. I have equal use for both. I have a multichannel AVR in my family room and stereo (monoblock) amplifiers in my music room.

Martin

 

[gags11]

I dont understand how does this become a stereo vs avr when they are catering for different markets. Is it you folks ran out of things to argue about???..

Completely agree with you: AVR is intended for audiovisual, i.e. movie experience, while stereo is for stereo music.

Some, however, do not have the luxury of having separate rooms and equipment for stereo and AV, so a device that does both well may be desired.

 

[sgent]

It looks too big and over-speced for the intended use, I agree. But if you're really researching you keep on coming back to them because there just doesn't seem to be...

...the kinds of integrated amps with room correction that we are looking for.

• Stereo amps: NCore NC252MP and NC502MP flavors
• 2 independent subwoofer outputs
• No speaker preouts (not needed)
• Room EQ with FIR filtering and auto dual sub integration
• A competent DAC
• Headphone output?
• Bass management options like AVRs
• A few HDMI inputs, toslink, RCA, coax
• Good remote control
• WiFi
• Streaming optional; Denon would likely include HEOS, MiniDSP would likely include Volumio

It would be the size of a Schiit Magnius or Modius and would be very efficient.

The problem is that economics of scale would probably push such a product into ranges we aren't comfortable with. Based on the prices of Denon X3700H and MiniDSP SHD Power, it's possible this would be a $1500 product. I would love to see one for $500-800 I could put on my desktop but Im not sure what needs to be cut to get it there. You would probably have to jettison the WiFI, streaming, HDMI inputs (licensing fees cost $), the headphone amp, and maybe take the amp down to NC122MP or make it preout-only, intended to be used with powered desktop speakers.

USB input as well. Wifi with Airplay 2 and Roon would be great. Hell, I would be static if the gave me BM on one of Denon's PMA.

 

[Sal1950]

Completely agree with you: AVR is intended for audiovisual, i.e. movie experience, while stereo is for stereo music.

How boring, but if you must have both it's so easy. A stereo pre/amp or intergrated unit being fed your 2 ch sources, and your normal multich setup. Just change out the L & R speaker cables to switch between, easy peasy.
But why?
The myth of dedicated stereo sounding better than multich is just that, a myth.
99.5% of the quality of your rigs reproduction will depend on the quality of your speakers and your rooms tuning.
In the majority of real-world cases a decent AVR based rig will whip the stereo if it's DRC software has been applied correctly.
Plus the AVR offers access to all the multich sources available today.
With the explosion of immersive music being offered by the streamers and on disc, it's very possible that the stereo-only world is coming to an end. As long as Joe Sixpack can be convinced "spatial" audio is an improvement over stereo and he only needs a $199 crapbar to enjoy it, that will leave only the teeny tiny audiophile world to complain.

BTW, when I had my home up north with a number of rooms to listen to music where I wasn't sitting in a sweet-spot to enjoy, I had a number of mono rigs running. The kitchen, basement, and garage had some killer rigs using old classic HiFi gear. Who cares about stereo when your cooking or building an engine?

 

[gags11]

How boring, but if you must have both it's so easy. A stereo pre/amp or intergrated unit being fed your 2 ch sources, and your normal multich setup. Just change out the L & R speaker cables to switch between, easy peasy.
But why?
The myth of dedicated stereo sounding better than multich is just that, a myth.
99.5% of the quality of your rigs reproduction will depend on the quality of your speakers and your rooms tuning.
In the majority of real-world cases a decent AVR based rig will whip the stereo if it's DRC software has been applied correctly.
Plus the AVR offers access to all the multich sources available today.
With the explosion of immersive music being offered by the streamers and on disc, it's very possible that the stereo-only world is coming to an end. As long as Joe Sixpack can be convinced "spatial" audio is an improvement over stereo and he only needs a $199 crapbar to enjoy it, that will leave only the teeny tiny audiophile world to complain.

BTW, when I had my home up north with a number of rooms to listen to music where I wasn't sitting in a sweet-spot to enjoy, I had a number of mono rigs running. The kitchen, basement, and garage had some killer rigs using old classic HiFi gear. Who cares about stereo when your cooking or building an engine?

Look, if you disregard all the SINADs, music with full dynamics can never be reproduced by AVRs. Low level listening… yeah, ma be.

I ran a FR sweep through my KEF R11s to get 105dB at 1 meter in room. My McIntosh MC462, which in most listening levels idles at 5-20 watts, maxed over 700 watts during the sweep. Good luck having this kind of response from an AVR.

I came to a realization that speaker FR can be corrected by EQ, but speaker compression and amplifier clipping/ headroom deficiency can never be corrected.

 

[Sal1950]

I ran a FR sweep through my KEF R11s to get 105dB at 1 meter in room.

Humm, your KEF's are rated at 90 db/w/1meter, 105db should only take 31.623 watts??? 2 and 2 isn't adding up to 4 here?
Maybe I'm too buzzed to do my math correctly tonight.

 

[escksu]

Completely agree with you: AVR is intended for audiovisual, i.e. movie experience, while stereo is for stereo music.

Some, however, do not have the luxury of having separate rooms and equipment for stereo and AV, so a device that does both well may be desired.

Yes, i completely agree with you. I started with an avr back when i started with audio. 1 device that does everything is really alot cheaper and more convenient. Today, i have both. AVR for movies and stereo for music.

I dont understand why this thread is progressing to stereo vs AVR argument instead. They have their own strenghts and weaknesses and cater for different marketd and different needs. Why is there even a debate about which is better??