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The best way to bring audio enthusiasts from the dark side and see the light?

ahofer

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This thread is also making the "belief" the old guys are wrong just because the conventional measurements say the new stuff is better.
not better, in most cases, but "not worse". And we do ask that people use their ears. But without their eyes.
 

Midwest Blade

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So would you, as an apostate, not liked to have gotten out sooner?
It is, what it is, no big regrets. No doubt I would have saved a few $'s. My system was set many years ago and I have never been one to chase after the audio voodoo for more than a few years now.
 

pseudoid

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...From a modern environmental perspective...
Could that be the difference between you and them? Maybe keeping their inefficient ClassA amps and not getting a new ClassC [errrr.. slave labor in polluting shops?] amps they are actually doing good for the e-perspective???
I dunno... I am just throwing the pasta at the wall; to see if it's al-dente...

We have a nice neighbor couple (~28yr old) who were all giddy about their new 65inch TV.
I asked what they were doing for the audio-side and all I got back was those puppy eyes, from the both of them!
This continued a while and I made a point of bringing it up each time we ran across and chatted.
(Another one of those 'evangelist' moves that failed!)
Finally, I bought some silly-little BrzHiFi #PA-6 for a Benji. Dug up some old equally-cheezy little Yamaha bookshelves from the garage.
I wired the whole thing up before hand. Yes, $100 hw with $30 RCAs and hand-assembled speaker cables.
It took me about 5 minutes to hook it all up and to setup the TV/PA-6, while my mate was keeping them busy outside.
TL&DR
It worked!
 

Vain

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I think there's a bigger case for educating the generation who have grown up on listening to music on their phones and bluetooth speakers, that music is much much more than that. I let my kids stream their music through my setup to the point where their bodies feel the music. When they eventually decide to move out then I have a few systems they can choose from to take with them.
 

Tangband

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So, recently I have had discussions with old forums mates who are unfortunately stuck in their ways and still rely old ideas, like class A design amps are the only way to go for ultimate audio quality, a chigher price means "better", "high-end" can't ever be cheap, class D is horrible and could never match the power of class A, class D could never handle 2ohm loads etc.

I have provided some of these people with detailed information about how those can generally be misconceptions, data sheets on Purifi/Hypex modules, measurements and examples of well implemented modules etc. Some have digested this information and are interested in learning more, however some still refer to their ears being the panacea and consider the information "meaningless graphs" even though they have an understanding of what they are seeing. To me this is very "head in the sand" and "get off my lawn" type of attitude.

I'm interested to discuss how others have approached this and what they feel is the best way to assist an audio enthusiast to understand that many of their pre-conceptions about audio are misleading or simply outright factually incorrect, without the person feeling their knowledge and experience is threatened. Rather, to add to their experience and knowledge by not ignoring positive developments in the audio industry.


JSmith
The best thing one can do is to stop reading hifi magazines , instead, read Tooles book and do your own recordings of acoustical instruments .

Doing that - you will soon understand that sound reproduction with only 2 chanels are only, at best, a good illusion of the real recording event .

Installing the loudspeakers in the right way in a room is maybe the most important thing to gain good sound - much more important than any dsp room correction .

There is also no law that says expensive gear is better sounding than cheaper gear . But thats exactly what hifi-magazines are teaching us . So , stay away .
 

MaxBuck

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The best way to bring audio enthusiasts from the dark side and see the light?​


I personally prefer waterboarding, but some of these snowflakes are calling that "torture." :rolleyes:
 

deprogrammed

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Anyone who uses the words "Kills" and "Puni"
Agree mate, however in this case these are online associates... this is the kind of comments I mean for example;

As mentioned, I've provided this particular person with detailed measurements and data sheets for Purifi modules and amps using same, yet was dismissed as "marketing speak" and "meaningless graphs".

I'd like to enlighten some of these people so they can see the light like many of us have here.

I guess one can take a horse to water but can't make it drink. :facepalm:


JSmith
Anyone who uses kills and puny in the same sentence....is a DB. Don't engage.

Tell him class D amps have electrolytes. That may win him over.
 

Descartes

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So, recently I have had discussions with old forums mates who are unfortunately stuck in their ways and still rely old ideas, like class A design amps are the only way to go for ultimate audio quality, a chigher price means "better", "high-end" can't ever be cheap, class D is horrible and could never match the power of class A, class D could never handle 2ohm loads etc.

I have provided some of these people with detailed information about how those can generally be misconceptions, data sheets on Purifi/Hypex modules, measurements and examples of well implemented modules etc. Some have digested this information and are interested in learning more, however some still refer to their ears being the panacea and consider the information "meaningless graphs" even though they have an understanding of what they are seeing. To me this is very "head in the sand" and "get off my lawn" type of attitude.

I'm interested to discuss how others have approached this and what they feel is the best way to assist an audio enthusiast to understand that many of their pre-conceptions about audio are misleading or simply outright factually incorrect, without the person feeling their knowledge and experience is threatened. Rather, to add to their experience and knowledge by not ignoring positive developments in the audio industry.


JSmith
Not worth trying and waisting your time, when people refuse to look at scientific facts it becomes beliefs bias good luck trying to change their minds!
 

JJB70

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I wonder why some fields [of technology thus consumer products] are more receptive of “new” than others? In car industry, people generally accept “progress” and that the new technologies and solutions are superior to old/vintage ones… while in hi-fi not so much..?

I think the fundamental difference is between users who see hardware as being a tool, and enthusiasts/hobbyists for who hardware is a passion in itself.

There are lots of car enthusiasts who still defend the internal combustion engine, others who don't like turbocharged engines, people who insist manual gearboxes are better etc etc. These people tend to be a niche that gets lost in the background as most buyers are less wedded to such ideas. I think audio is the same. The sort of gear that tends to be discussed here is a small niche, the vast majority of consumers are perfectly happy with streaming, wireless speakers and headphones, and sound bars.

I really don't mind anyone liking whatever they like and there's nothing wrong with liking an older, inferior technology. The problem is when people try to claim they are better. For example I love the Jaguar E Type, Lamborghini Miura and Shelby AC Cobra much more than the Tesla 3, but it would be crazy to try and claim they were better. I have had the argument with watch enthusiasts, I love mechanical watches but some of the arguments put forward by watch nuts to dismiss quartz and smart watches are embarrassing.

So I am not sure the audiophile fringe is any different to the sort of fringes you find in any hobby or interest really. It tends to be tiny niches inhabiting their own echo chambers.
 

pseudoid

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Not worth trying and waisting your time
Nah! I think some call it 'paying forward' others are on that thought about 'giving a fishhook rather than giving fish', I like the one about 'you can take the horsey to the water but you can't make him drink from it!' ( can be viewed as 'giving the water but not the tongue').
As always, YMMV and IMHO.
 

JJB70

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Something that is always worth remembering - 'normals' (and many musicians, in my experience) view the ASR ethos in the same way people here view audiophoolery. I try not to mock the passions of others too much for the simple reason that I know most people will consider my own passions as being bonkers.
 

pseudoid

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You may find it interesting to check out:
@litemotiv, thank you for the link; very thought-provoking:
*"Not what we believe but how we believe" [I don't ask myself anymore]
*"We are pattern seekers" [how comes I never realized that I do that and often]
*"Quest for certainty: Fits really and literally ONLY in Logic and Math" [Huh? what about ASR?]
*"Every other discipline is strictly evidential and in degrees, never in certainty but only in degrees" [Yes, I can understand that for physics but they also make a mention of "nature of time" as being uncertain?]
Ayya karamba!
 

litemotiv

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*"Quest for certainty: Fits really and literally ONLY in Logic and Math" [Huh? what about ASR?]

What this means is that the only thing we have on ASR to make absolute statements about reality are the numbers we have. But the numbers are a result of measurements made by devices built by humans, and what the numbers mean is a matter of subjective interpretation. So while the following mathematical statement is absolute:

100 > 90

What the practical consequences of this are in a certain situation are contextual and up for interpretation. For example if you are talking about SINAD you can ask the question: 100db is better than 90db, but is it good enough? You can only make subjective statements about that and not absolute.

*"Every other discipline is strictly evidential and in degrees, never in certainty but only in degrees" [Yes, I can understand that for physics but they also make a mention of "nature of time" as being uncertain?]

A similar principle as above applies to time, just like we have to subjectively agree about what SINAD is, we have to subjectively agree about what time is. There is another interesting video about this in the same series called 'What is Time?':

 

Mart68

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I participate in two forums where subjectivity reigns - Audiogon and Harbeth Facebook Group. My rule is that I don’t overtly contradict people or push for evidence *unless* someone is asking advice about upgrading their amp, cables, etc. Then I step in and encourage them not to waste their money. You really can’t reason with someone who has already made the investment. At least in a short period of time and in an online setting.

Truthfully, my participation in both places has dropped to near zero. The really insistent subjectivists will pull out all the obnoxious stops to tribally excommunicate you and it gets really tiresome. I know @Willem has been bounced from the Harbeth FB Group, which is just amazing considering Alan Shaw’s position on electronics.
That sounds familiar to me.

I tend to not get involved and leave them to their wild imaginings but if someone specifically posts and asks for advice then I will give it even though it contradicts the advice they get from everyone else on the forum.

The reason being when I knew no better there was no-one there to give the correct advice to me. The only reason I did not waste a ton of money was because at the time I was fairly skint. I did spend a fair few years chasing my tail when I could have been relaxing to good sound quality though.
I don't like to see that happen to other people because I see myself in them.

Then at least the person asking for advice has got to see both sides of the coin. What they do after that is up to them.

Of course you get shouted down with the usual 'system not resolving enough', 'must be deaf', 'not a discerning listener' stuff but that doesn't bother me. I've been shouted down plenty of times.
 

Zaireeka

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Show them videos on how the pros choose & set up their gear, measure and treat their rooms...
 

charleski

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OngakuSky.jpg


If people want to believe ... they'll generally end up believing.
Subjectivists like to rant about 'trusting your ears', but I suspect the real issue is that they don't. Back in the '90s I devoutly hoovered up all the drivel written by people like Ken Kessler in HFN and wasted a lot of time (and money) on different amplifiers, different CD players/DACs, various 'tweaks', etc. Yet strangely enough, none of them transported me to the sonic nirvana that I was expecting. I went to hifi shows and the systems there all sounded good, but they also sounded loud (...), far louder than I'd really want to play music at home where I generally want to hear what the other person is saying.

It was only after several years of this that I finally saw the light and actually began to trust my ears, which were telling me that all this stuff sounds much the same. I think that anyone buying into the subjectivist paradigm is going to have to do the same in order to truly see the light.
 

Mart68

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I
View attachment 180941

If people want to believe ... they'll generally end up believing.
Subjectivists like to rant about 'trusting your ears', but I suspect the real issue is that they don't. Back in the '90s I devoutly hoovered up all the drivel written by people like Ken Kessler in HFN and wasted a lot of time (and money) on different amplifiers, different CD players/DACs, various 'tweaks', etc. Yet strangely enough, none of them transported me to the sonic nirvana that I was expecting. I went to hifi shows and the systems there all sounded good, but they also sounded loud
I've never been to a hi-fi show where all the systems sounded good. Usually there's a few that sound very good, a few that are acceptable, and lots (usually the most expensive ones) that are badly flawed.
 
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