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The bass is..... the place.

D

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Bass---as someone once said, is the final frontier.:rolleyes:

Who here thinks that the reproduction of the bass notes in their room is 'perfect' and are totally satisfied with the results. If so, what are you using--- a subwoofer, or a speaker with large drivers and a large enclosure?
or maybe both. Your room size and construction?

How much does the room contribute to the overall reproduction of 'accurate' and resolved bass. How low does the system need to go ( and how loud) in order to sound truly realistic in the bass notes. The foundation of the music...how important to get it right so that the 'experienced' listener is truly fooled ( impressed???) ? Many questions....many answers. :confused:
Thoughts........................:cool:
 

NorthSky

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It depends. :D
 

fas42

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My opinions will be totally counter to just about everyone else - because I have very low interest, in very low bass, :p ...

IME "'accurate' and resolved bass" comes about because all the frequencies above are working properly - and the mind "fills the gaps", beautifully. This was most amusingly demonstrated to me by using a low cost system which had a proper, quite decent separate subwoofer - and on many occasions this subwoofer ceased to operate totally because of fragile soldering of key parts, the whole bass end completely vanished - and I didn't pick it!! Would go through a number of recordings until finally something like solo piano would trigger the thought that the bass seemed a bit light ... :confused: o_O :D !

So, I was completely fooled, for a while, because the rest of the spectrum was doing its job well enough! No, I am not interested in getting bass 'right', especially if it's highly distorted - I've heard too many messes over the years, where obviously the distortion harmonics of those ultra deep notes were completely altering the sense of the music - this was out and out nonsense to listen to ...
 
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D

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My opinions will be totally counter to just about everyone else - because I have very low interest, in very low bass, :p ...

IME "'accurate' and resolved bass" comes about because all the frequencies above are working properly - and the mind "fills the gaps", beautifully. This was most amusingly demonstrated to me by using a low cost system which had a proper, quite decent separate subwoofer - and on many occasions this subwoofer ceased to operate totally because of fragile soldering of key parts, the whole bass end completely vanished - and I didn't pick it!! Would go through a number of recordings until finally something like solo piano would trigger the thought that the bass seemed a bit light ... :confused: o_O :D !

So, I was completely fooled, for a while, because the rest of the spectrum was doing its job well enough! No, I am not interested in getting bass 'right', especially if it's highly distorted - I've heard too many messes over the years, where obviously the distortion harmonics of those ultra deep notes were completely altering the sense of the music - this was out and out nonsense to listen to ...

Well, if the bass is highly distorted, then I think you have the bass---WRONG! IME, getting the bass reproduced as accurately and as realistically as possible is fundamental in the quality/realism of the music being reproduced. The fundamentals of most music rely on the accurate reproduction of the bass notes. The midrange is where the music lives, but the bass is where it truly "breathes". IMHO.
 

RayDunzl

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Who here thinks that the reproduction of the bass notes in their room is 'perfect'

I don't.

and are totally satisfied with the results.

I'm essentially satisfied with the current audible results. Measurements show a failing around 50Hz, due to seating position in a null. I don't notice it. I can put on headphones (to get the 50Hz) and take them off, and not be disappointed. Go figure. You get used to things, or simply adjust, I suppose.

How low does the system need to go ( and how loud) in order to sound truly realistic in the bass notes.

42Hz is the low note of a four string bass guitar, and standup (string) bass, 31Hz is the low of a 5 string electric bass, 27.5 the low of a piano. Pipe organs and synthesizer can go to lower fundamentals. Having some air movement down low is good. Bumps and thumps can show up lower.

I don't think I can hear a tone below 25-26Hz, although I haven't tried real hard.

Most recordings roll off rapidly in the lower octaves by my observation, whether that is by design, or because there was nothing there, or the mics roll off, I don't know for sure. Need a response on that from someone in recording.

Loudness - that's relative. As long as it comes in the right proportion to the natural harmonics that go with it, it works for me. I like real instruments, they have real sounds. I'm not often a fan of electronica.

For movies and their sound effects, I have no opinion. I've had a string bass in my room. I've had a bass guitar in here. I've pounded on the leftmost key of a grand piano. I've never had a significant explosion or a building collapse or any battling Decepticons in here to make a proper comparison.

The foundation of the music...how important to get it right so that the 'experienced' listener is truly fooled ( impressed???) ?

Good bass is as necessary as good anything else, I suppose. I doubt the "experienced listener" is ever truly fooled, but he may experience periods of "suspension of disbelief" when the mood is right. When that happens to me, I get into an almost asleep state, my head nods forward. Not unlike what happened at a long boring meeting at work, except instead of not hearing what's going on, it's more like I'm hearing it all. The longer it takes me to realize the music stopped after it does is a good measure of the depth of the suspension.

Disclaimer: I'm deaf and don't have any good gear, and am basically a hermit, so, maybe all of the above is just my imagination.
 

fas42

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Well, if the bass is highly distorted, then I think you have the bass---WRONG! IME, getting the bass reproduced as accurately and as realistically as possible is fundamental in the quality/realism of the music being reproduced. The fundamentals of most music rely on the accurate reproduction of the bass notes. The midrange is where the music lives, but the bass is where it truly "breathes". IMHO.
Davey, the thing that gets me is that the specs of real world drivers, and how human hearing works give the game away - the lower the frequency, the more distortion, 2nd, 3rd is produced, all the better manufacturers show this behaviour occurring. And, at the same time human hearing is becoming more insensitive, the infamous Fletcher–Munson curves show it clearly.

Which means that when the subwoofer is valiantly trying to pump out pure 20, 30, 40 Hz waves, that the level of distortion the ear is hearing subjectively matches roughly that of the fundamental - the bass drivers are major effects units, injecting bass that shouldn't be there. Only a superbly engineered unit can overcome these fundamental factors, in play here.
 

Cosmik

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I think that good bass is as crucial as good mid range and treble, but I refuse to open up the can of worms that is DSP room correction, except at the most elementary level. I only use sealed woofers which, because of their 'straight' character, reduce the need to meddle with the EQ, it seems to me.
 
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Purité Audio

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I too prefer sealed bass, but bass issues are 'usually' related to standing waves which are purely dependent on the physical dimensions of your room, so if your speakers produce bass there will 'always ' be issues.
Cue AJ to step in with 'gradient' bass and I will mention the Beolab 90's which produce the best defined bass I have ever heard, because they almost totally eliminate the room.
Keith.
 

Cosmik

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I too prefer sealed bass, but bass issues are 'usually' related to standing waves which are purely dependent on the physical dimensions of your room, so if your speakers produce bass there will 'always ' be issues.
Cue AJ to step in with 'gradient' bass and I will mention the Beolab 90's which produce the best defined bass I have ever heard, because they almost totally eliminate the room.
Keith.
It depends what we regard as an issue that needs to be fixed. I know that I have no chance of convincing anyone, but my 'belief' is that psycho-acoustically, to a large extent, we hear past the room - even the bass - and that room correction using EQ of the speaker itself is an 'ill-posed problem'.

I see the Beolab 90 and Kii Three as performing something different: they use extra transducers to change the dispersion pattern of the speaker 'at source'. I would love to hear them.
 

Purité Audio

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You may be able to hear past a massive bass peak which masks other frequencies ,but I can't , bass issues are the
very first thing I ahead in 'almost ' every system, unless the speakers have so little extension that the room is not excited.
Personally I prefer to hear everything and eradicate any issues.
Keith.
 

Cosmik

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You may be able to hear past a massive bass peak which masks other frequencies ,but I can't , bass issues are the
very first thing I ahead in 'almost ' every system, unless the speakers have so little extension that the room is not excited.
Personally I prefer to hear everything and eradicate any issues.
Keith.
You could wear headphones...

Not an entirely flippant point BTW. Is the ideal room one where you reproduce headphone listening, while not having to wear headphones? I find that a bass peak or two (and corresponding troughs) enhances the perception of 'power' in the music. I have no proof, but it seems to me that if everything about the acoustics of the room (including the sound of my own voice and other people's) are leading me to expect those peaks and troughs, my brain will be sadly disappointed if it doesn't hear them - and feel them - in the music. As I say, it's just my own belief (a dirty word, I know!).
 
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Fitzcaraldo215

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You could wear headphones...

Not an entirely flippant point BTW. Is the ideal room one where you reproduce headphone listening, while not having to wear headphones? I find that a bass peak or two (and corresponding troughs) enhances the perception of 'power' in the music. I have no proof, but it seems to me that if everything about the acoustics of the room (including the sound of my own voice and other people's) are leading me to expect those peaks and troughs, my brain will be sadly disappointed if it doesn't hear them - and feel them - in the music. As I say, it's just my own belief (a dirty word, I know!).

Headphone listening? No thanks. Unless the recording is binaural (few are), I find the imaging inside your head quite fatiguiging with the other 99% of recordings.

Yes, many find bass peaks pleasurable especially with rock/pop recordings. Some speakers were even voiced to do that deliberately. Ages ago, there was the very popular JBL Century 100, long before Toole's time at Harman. The famous old BBC LS3/5A has a deliberate bass hump to "hide" the fact that it has rapidly dimishing output below 100 Hz. There are many other examples.

There is also no question that you become accustomed to the sound of your system, warts and all. Take away bass peaks, etc., and it might sound deficient by comparison. But, what you are used to liking is a sound effect, someting not there in the recording and not in the live music. To me, that is not "better".

This ties into your earlier distrust of DSP EQ. For me personally and for many of my friends who have tried it, it has become essential. We could not live without it. Typical rooms really do mess up the bass to a really large degree, like +- 5, 10, 15 dB or even more, and even with speakers that measure great anechoically. But, the reference for my friends and I is to the sound we hear at live concerts with unamplified classical music.
 

RayDunzl

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It depends what we regard as an issue that needs to be fixed. I know that I have no chance of convincing anyone, but my 'belief' is that psycho-acoustically, to a large extent, we hear past the room - even the bass - and that room correction using EQ of the speaker itself is an 'ill-posed problem'.

Take an old color photo.

Put it in a photo editor.

Click "Feeling Lucky".

Note changes (usually pretty darn good) to the fidelity.

Repeat the experiment substituting Room Sound for Photo, modern DRC for photo editor.

Report back.

Example: Before... After...
 
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Cosmik

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Yes, many find bass peaks pleasurable especially with rock/pop recordings. Some speakers were even voiced to do that deliberately. Ages ago, there was the very popular JBL Century 100, long before Toole's time at Harman. The famous old BBC LS3/5A has a deliberate bass hump to "hide" the fact that it has rapidly dimishing output below 100 Hz. There are many other examples.
But that would be a hump in the frequency response that I am not expecting from the 'ambient' acoustics of the room, so I also see that as a problem. What I am tentatively suggesting is that if my speakers are neutral (and yes, how that is defined is contentious), then whatever the room does after that will sound 'natural'. That doesn't mean that all rooms will sound good, but that always aiming for a flat response at the listener's position by means of electronic EQ is not my automatic choice.
But, the reference for my friends and I is to the sound we hear at live concerts with unamplified classical music.
Accepted, but my suggestion is that as we are adding our own room's acoustics to the recording, attempting to eliminate our room at the bass frequencies using electronic EQ may lead to strange psycho-acoustic results, no matter how good the measurements look.
 

amirm

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It depends what we regard as an issue that needs to be fixed. I know that I have no chance of convincing anyone, but my 'belief' is that psycho-acoustically, to a large extent, we hear past the room - even the bass - and that room correction using EQ of the speaker itself is an 'ill-posed problem'.
That effect is only there above a few hundred hertz where the two ears hear different things. At bass frequencies we don't hear past the room. Indeed the room dominates what we hear as bass: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/subwoofer-low-frequency-optimization.15/

Room-Speaker-Effect.png


The above is measurements in different parts of the room showing highly variable frequency response. This means the measured output is a function of the room, not the speaker. We hear bass resonances as low as 0.5 dB so those 10 to 30 db variations are very audible.

They also cause longer trails in time domain causing bass notes to run into each other.

If you have excellently designed speakers you can use EQ just for bass. I am doing that with correction limited to 200 Hz. I can turn it on and off and it clearly improves the fidelity.
 

Cosmik

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Take an old color photo.

Put it in a photo editor.

Click "Feeling Lucky".

Note changes (usually pretty darn good) to the fidelity.

Repeat the experiment substituting Room Sound for Photo, modern DRC for photo editor.

Report back.
OK, but a possible alternative:

Take a pristine perfect photograph and print it. 'Correct' it with a blue-ish tinge so that when printed and viewed in a yellowish room (yellow wallpaper on a sunny day), it reproduces the original colour balance.

View the two prints side by side in that yellowish room on a sunny day. Objectively, the 'corrected' print is better, but in context it looks blue.

In fact, the original neutral print always looks more neutral in whatever light you view it, even if the 'corrected' version (possibly) shows more detail.
 

Purité Audio

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You can have the best measuring loudspeakers on the planet but place them in a room and everything changes, most listeners believe their system is 'good' because they have tried different components and eventually reached their current set up, hardly any consider the effects of the room, dealers certainly won't promote room acoustics, they would rather sell your another box to 'fix' the problem.
My advice would be to at least acoustically measure your room, the results are always interesting, and then try Diracs ( for example) free trial , and see what you make of their optimisation.
Keith.
 
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