The AVR vs 2-channel dilemma

[Lever]

Hello,

although I don't have an immediate need in the form of a shopping list, I have a personal goal to enjoy more music (especially classical) in the future. And I got curious about something.

18 years ago (sigh), I got myself a Marantz AVR and 6 speakers from Mordaunt Short that form a surround system. The front speakers are 3-way tower speakers. speakers. For all this time, this is what I've been using for listening to stereo music. And I can't say I've been disappointed. This system has moved home several times and it's always been in rooms that were not specifically treated in any way. They have however always been living room spaces.

I am again looking to move house and it is possible that I will have a "spare" room, where I could put a second system. The spare room would probably be tiny. Anything between 6 and 9 square metres. I could however, without exaggerations, try to add some degree of acoustic treatment. In such a small environment, I would probably end up buying a stereo amplifier and a pair of bookshelf speakers. Not looking to spend millions. Let's assume Wharfedale Diamond price range.

My question is the following. In your opinion, which system would sound better? Nicer speakers in a bigger room connected to an AVR receiver or tiny speakers in a tiny room connected to a good quality dedicated stereo amplifier.

Many years ago, I was speaking to an audiophile about a similar subject and the answer was that he was not even interested in discussing with someone who listens to music with an AVR receiver. The day I have a stereo amplifier in my home, I will probably try to connect it to the main speakers in the living room and see what difference it makes, but my question here is more "philosophical". I know from experience that changing speakers changes what I hear. In my personal experience, changing amplifier was never so dramatic, but I've heard many enthusiast say that if you have 1000 dollars to spend in Hifi, 500 should go in the speakers and 500 in the amp.

That's why I'm asking this question. Rather than a better/worse answer, I'd be interested to know what you think I would gain or lose by using a stereo amplifier with small speakers in a small room compared to a decent but not fancy AVR with tower speakers in a larger environment. By the way, I do not use the sub-woofer when I listen to stereo music. Maybe it's me or my incompetence in setting it up, but when I tried it, I definitely didn't like the outcome. And no, my old Marantz doesn't feature any room correction magic.

Thanks to whoever wants to reply I read through some threads in this forum and, as opposed to most others, it really looks like a fact-based community I would love to be part of.

 

[Power Pop 23]

Hello,

although I don't have an immediate need in the form of a shopping list, I have a personal goal to enjoy more music (especially classical) in the future. And I got curious about something.

18 years ago (sigh), I got myself a Marantz AVR and 6 speakers from Mordaunt Short that form a surround system. The front speakers are 3-way tower speakers. speakers. For all this time, this is what I've been using for listening to stereo music. And I can't say I've been disappointed. This system has moved home several times and it's always been in rooms that were not specifically treated in any way. They have however always been living room spaces.

I am again looking to move house and it is possible that I will have a "spare" room, where I could put a second system. The spare room would probably be tiny. Anything between 6 and 9 square metres. I could however, without exaggerations, try to add some degree of acoustic treatment. In such a small environment, I would probably end up buying a stereo amplifier and a pair of bookshelf speakers. Not looking to spend millions. Let's assume Wharfedale Diamond price range.

My question is the following. In your opinion, which system would sound better? Nicer speakers in a bigger room connected to an AVR receiver or tiny speakers in a tiny room connected to a good quality dedicated stereo amplifier.

Many years ago, I was speaking to an audiophile about a similar subject and the answer was that he was not even interested in discussing with someone who listens to music with an AVR receiver. The day I have a stereo amplifier in my home, I will probably try to connect it to the main speakers in the living room and see what difference it makes, but my question here is more "philosophical". I know from experience that changing speakers changes what I hear. In my personal experience, changing amplifier was never so dramatic, but I've heard many enthusiast say that if you have 1000 dollars to spend in Hifi, 500 should go in the speakers and 500 in the amp.

That's why I'm asking this question. Rather than a better/worse answer, I'd be interested to know what you think I would gain or lose by using a stereo amplifier with small speakers in a small room compared to a decent but not fancy AVR with tower speakers in a larger environment. By the way, I do not use the sub-woofer when I listen to stereo music. Maybe it's me or my incompetence in setting it up, but when I tried it, I definitely didn't like the outcome. And no, my old Marantz doesn't feature any room correction magic.

Thanks to whoever wants to reply I read through some threads in this forum and, as opposed to most others, it really looks like a fact-based community I would love to be part of.

I vote for nicer speakers in a bigger room with an AVR

 

[Leeken]

There is the 3rd way,a really good headphone set up,take the room out of the equation

 

[DVDdoug]

Better speakers in a bigger room every time!

Are there many classical recordings it surround sound? You NEED that to simulate the immersive sound of a concert hall.

I rarely listen to classical but some of the best music I have is on concert DVDs with surround. And with regular stero I like to use one of the "soundfield" settings on my AVR for some delayed reverb in the rear and the "feel" of a larger space. (That's "hi-fi heresy" since I'm not listening "as intended".)

Many years ago, I was speaking to an audiophile about a similar subject and the answer was that he was not even interested in discussing with someone who listens to music with an AVR receiver.

Don't listen to audiophools!!!

Most electronics doesn't have particular "sound" except for tone controls/EQ (or surround effects, etc.), or if it's over-driven into clipping/distortion.

 

[Joe Smith]

Well, I think the short answer is, a dedicated nearfield is going to sound "different" than your big rig - not so much due to amp, more to the speakers and the different environment. No way to know how much you will like that, after years of listening in the living room environment, until you try it. So advice would be to start small and then then beef it up if you like the "simplified" listening environment.

For your needs, you definitely don't need to spend a lot. Yes, Wharfedale Diamond speakers or equivalents. A smaller integrated amp, a Schiit Gjallarhorn amp and Saga 2 preamp, or even to start one of the small class D amps (Fosi V3 stereo, Aiyima A07 Max, etc.) if you don't need multiple inputs. Streaming easy via a WiiM Mini. Spend time getting the speaker placement right, preferably on solid stands.

I think a bit too much is made of the AVR versus standard integrated amp discussion. With AVRs, as with any amps, there are good ones and less-good ones.

I'm with you on not using subwoofers and not doing complicated room correction. Neither is my thing, and I am very picky about sound, but try to keep my obsessiveness at a reasonable level. There are some (bad) rooms/spaces where I can see the need for it, but I don't have those issues, fortunately.

 

[Scytales]

Are there many classical recordings [in] surround sound? You NEED that to simulate the immersive sound of a concert hall.

There are literally thousands already out there and many more awaiting in the archives of many music labels.

Even if quadraphonic never really caught up, many music companies proceed to record in multichannel or techniques compatible with multichannel mix for the day it would be possible to release music under that form.

For the very simple reason that every serious sound engineer skilled in the art know that faithfulness to the natural sound at a classical concert can only be improve thanks to multichannel reproduction. Experiments as old as some carried out in the 1930s leave no doubt on this subject.

 

[Lever]

Thank you all for the kind replies. Lots of useful information in there. This thing of the small room came to my head while house hunting, when my wife told me that her dream is to have a room with a sofa and a bookcase... it just looked like the perfect place to put a HiFi system and relax. The reality however is that the rooms I'm seeing tend to be pretty small.

I noticed how no one mentioned the common "sound stage" jargon. I confess it's something I want to investigate, but with my allegedly mediocre system, I do hear the instruments of an orchestra to the left or to the right and I currently fail to understand what it is that I am missing.

 

[amper42]

To me Stereo with a nice set of Revel Speakers and the RME ADI-2 DAC FS sounds superior for music over any AVR.
But for movies the Denon 4700H is fine. Since 90% of my listening is music the Denon has lots of idle time.

 

[CapMan]

Many years ago, I was speaking to an audiophile about a similar subject and the answer was that he was not even interested in discussing with someone who listens to music with an AVR receiver.

They are an idiot and best ignored

 

[BJL]

Thank you all for the kind replies. Lots of useful information in there. This thing of the small room came to my head while house hunting, when my wife told me that her dream is to have a room with a sofa and a bookcase... it just looked like the perfect place to put a HiFi system and relax. The reality however is that the rooms I'm seeing tend to be pretty small.

I noticed how no one mentioned the common "sound stage" jargon. I confess it's something I want to investigate, but with my allegedly mediocre system, I do hear the instruments of an orchestra to the left or to the right and I currently fail to understand what it is that I am missing.

The existence or not of a soundstage relates to the speakers, engineering of the recording, and, critically, the placement of your speakers and acoustics of your room; all subject to the limitations of two channel (stereo) media, as compared to a multichannel recording (DVD-A, SACD, Blu Ray, some streaming services such as Apple Music). After reading your comment, I put a couple of classical recordings on (since you mentioned classical music), Beethoven's third on Telarc (Dohnanyi) and Mozart's Jupiter symphony on Linn (Mackaress).The Mozart (a newer recording) does present a nice soundstage, meaning the orchestra sounds placed in a proscenium in front of the listener (me) without exaggeration on the left or right. Similarly the older Telarc recording, though not quite as good as the Linn recording.

Have you considered upgrading your AVR to one that has a Dirac Live room/speaker correction license? I found that incorporating Dirac vastly improved the spatial aspects of reproduction. Speakers are very expensive. I would start with an AVR updated to include Dirac, and upgrade your speakers at some time in the future if you feel like it.

Soundstage is very important. If you are getting a "headphone" effect (hard left and right) it is likely the interaction of your speakers with the room. Dirac will correct that. When I ran Dirac software for the first time it was an extraordinary difference. You can get a miniDSP device with Dirac as an add on, but I believe that what would be most cost effective would be a new AVR with a Dirac license, which would give you a multichannel option as well.

 

[-Matt-]

I'd be interested to know what you think I would gain or lose by using a stereo amplifier with small speakers in a small room compared to a decent but not fancy AVR with tower speakers in a larger environment.

If you compare your 18 year old AVR (with room correction and subwoofers disabled) to a current state of the art stereo setup:
The SINAD of the amplification stage will likely be in the range 60-80 for the AVR and could be more like 100 for the stereo amp.

But that difference in SINAD (cleaner sound) is harder to hear than you think. Anything above 90 (or 100 if you have golden ears) is considered transparent. So you would likely hear no difference at all between 100 and 130 SINAD.

But this completely misses the major and very audible advantage that the AVR can offer.

By the way, I do not use the sub-woofer when I listen to stereo music. Maybe it's me or my incompetence in setting it up, but when I tried it, I definitely didn't like the outcome. And no, my old Marantz doesn't feature any room correction magic.

The main developments for AVRs over the last 18 years (aside from video resolution and HDMI) have be to improve the quality and ease of use of room correction and subwoofer integration.

People with a history of audiophile indoctrination are likely to disable subwoofers, use pure direct mode to disable dsp, etc, etc.

In your hypothetical comparison, it would be much fairer to compare the stereo setup with a modern state of the art AVR with all such features judiciously applied. (Modern AVRs can have SINAD of 90ish).

Personally I find listening through an AVR (with subs, room correction and upmixed to all speaker channels) far more engaging than plain old stereo. This is not a barely perceivable difference (like amplifier SINAD) - it is a HUGE difference.

The above would still be true if the speakers were identical between both systems. Your hypthetical question allows larger speakers and a larger room to the AVR setup, which would make that even more preferable in my view.

 

[Elkerton]

My office is tiny (9x10'), and I have an ancient receiver driving 2 pairs of speakers each with sub, one for nearfield computer use and the other for far field (haha) use, both situated across one corner. Both sound fine, particularly the far field ones whose imaging is fantastic.

Go for it, regardless of what amplification you decide upon.

 

[Willem]

For the small room I would opt for Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 or similar. I have a pair of DIamond 220s and they are excellent for the price, without any vices. Add a WiiM Amp and you are done. It also gives you the benefit of dsp room equalization. Forget your hesitation, and use it. As for tha main room, again I would suggest dsp room eq will make a huge difference, particularly if you add at least two small subwoofers. I decided to stick with stereo, given the size of my favourtite speakers: Quad 2805 electrostats (plus now three subs equalized with Multi Sub Optimizer). I also use the big stereo system for movies. For me, the quality of the big sound wins over the spatial effect of multichannel, given that I don't have space for both (imagine at least five big electrostats).

 

[Lever]

If you compare your 18 year old AVR (with room correction and subwoofers disabled) to a current state of the art stereo setup:
The SINAD of the amplification stage will likely be in the range 60-80 for the AVR and could be more like 100 for the stereo amp.

But that difference in SINAD (cleaner sound) is harder to hear than you think. Anything above 90 (or 100 if you have golden ears) is considered transparent. So you would likely hear no difference at all between 100 and 130 SINAD.

But this completely misses the major and very audible advantage that the AVR can offer.



The main developments for AVRs over the last 18 years (aside from video resolution and HDMI) have be to improve the quality and ease of use of room correction and subwoofer integration.

People with a history of audiophile indoctrination are likely to disable subwoofers, use pure direct mode to disable dsp, etc, etc.

In your hypothetical comparison, it would be much fairer to compare the stereo setup with a modern state of the art AVR with all such features judiciously applied. (Modern AVRs can have SINAD of 90ish).

Personally I find listening through an AVR (with subs, room correction and upmixed to all speaker channels) far more engaging than plain old stereo. This is not a barely perceivable difference (like amplifier SINAD) - it is a HUGE difference.

The above would still be true if the speakers were identical between both systems. Your hypthetical question allows larger speakers and a larger room to the AVR setup, which would make that even more preferable in my view.

I read your comment with a lot of interest. At the moment, my surround speakers are tucked away in a wardrobe, as I don't have the space for them in the current setup. As Willem, I have to say that when I watch a movie, having good stereo sound (in my case + a central channel and a subwoofer) is 95% of the experience and I feel that the surround speakers only give me 5%. I think at some point when I bought the system I tried the "upscaled" configuration and when I change home I'll definitely give it a try again. Regarding the sub-woofer, I remember 18 years ago when I tried it with music. Being a test, I went extreme and tried it with "Another one bites the dust". I tried to configure all the possible crossover frequencies, but it always felt like I was "breaking" the mix, in the sense that the bass had become completely detached from the rest and the song didn't sound anymore like a single unit of sound harmoniously put together. 18 years ago I knew a lot less than today and it's not like today I'm an expert in anything. I have specified in my post that I seriously doubt my setup capabilities. Also, at the time I had no clue about the importance of the room, as I had lived in the same house for all my life Today, I have heard my system sound vastly differently at each house move. So, I guess after your comment I will at least give the sub-woofer another try. Although I suspect that playing with the low frequencies requires some competence that I lack. On the other end, you'll all say that competence is what you gain by experimenting, so why not?

Also, I think I unintentionally tricked many of you into thinking that I have an auditorium in the house... The "big room" is a normal living room in a flat with an open kitchen (a long line of modern supersmooth ultrareflective cabinets). The only reason to call it big is that the bedrooms/offices are ridiculously tiny. I think I am at the border of oversizing with my modest tower speakers even in the big room.

Speaking of which, I was surprised to read that Elkerton and Willem use sub-woofers in small offices. So it looks like there is hope for low frequencies even in small spaces

 

[Vacceo]

AVR´s have a nice feature of Zone 2 (and 3 sometimes). You could even use the AVR as "preamp" for a second room.

In terms of distortion, a good AVR will be fine as a "preamp", and you can include elements such as streaming and the convenience of hooking up extra sources. Using Zone 2, you take "the box" somwhere else and you´ll just have to add your speakers of choice. Control is relatively easy thanks to the APP´s to manage the AVR in the other room.

My preference, however, is to get a single, really well acomplished listening area first. That would include subwoofer integration, speakers of a reasonable size for the room (if you have a dance hall, go crazy; otherwise, monitors and compact towers can be perfectly fine) and all the sources connected to it.

My logic is that a system that plays good stereo has the potential to play good audiovisual content. With a good stereo as foundation, building up multichannel is just a process of adding and calibrating elements.

 

[Willem]

Just to correct a misunderstanding: I am not using the three subwoofers in a small room. They are in the main system with the high passed Quad 2805 electrostats in a pretty large sitting room. In my 16+ sqm/200 sq ft study/home office I tried a small subwoofer, and it made a difference, but I decided it was not worth it and that a third subwoofer in the main system gives more benefits. The problem with subs in small rooms is that room modes reach much higher frequencies than in small rooms, but equalizing such higher frequencies is too listening position specific. So my preference is for not even bothering with the deep bass. In a bigger room properly equalized multiple smallish subs are great. My main system reaches well below 20 Hz and the response is pretty smooth across just about the entire room, thanks to using more than one sub. I use Multiple Sub Optimizer and a mini DSP 2x4HD for the qualization. It is brilliant, but not easy. In your case I would begin with just your one existing sub. The next step could be to buy a cheap miniDSP Umik-1 measurement microphone and start measuring your main system with the free REW software. My strategy would be:
1 use the existing rear speakers of your main system in the small room, with a WiiM AMP, or something even cheaper. The beauty of the WiiM Amp is, of course that is has a very versatile streamer, and some filters for room eq.
2 Keep the AVR, use the subwoofer that you have, and measure the response with a miniDSP Umik-1 and REW. Get a mini DSP 2x4HD to equalize the sub with REW generated filters.
3 Add another subwoofer (you can mix them, but preferably ported with ported and sealed with sealed). I prefer them sealed. Depending on the size/response of the rear speakers, if they are very small you could also move the sub to the small system, and get two modern subwoofers for the main system. You can use REW filters, but MSO would give a better result over a much larger listening area.
4 After that, and only after that, would I personally contemplate replacing the AVR or the existing speakers.
This of course assumes that you feel confident about designing filters with REW and MSO. If not, you should loook at simpler systems such as the DSpeaker Antimode 8033 or their X2, or a modern AVR with room eq.

 

[Elkerton]

With regard to my use of subs in my wee office, they're small. That is, both the satellites and subs are. The satellites don't have much response below 100 Hz, so the subs do a good job of filling in an octave or more below. Placing the subs half way along the wall do a fair job of controlling the main standing waves in the room. Since the system is of secondary importance (I listen elsewhere usually), I feel no need for fancy sound correction like DSP, or parametric equalization, though undoubtedly, they would help.