The 'Audiophool' and Streaming

[Jimshoe]

I think there is a confusion between audio compression and data compression going on here.

Or, intentional trolling . . .

 

[r042wal]

Or something that rhymes with Sunday Stroll?

It's a disappointment when like-minded people with the same interests cannot engage in an open dialogue without contention and condescension. I jumped onto the amateur radio community a few years back. They are another elite group of people similar to the audio crowd but at least they are respectful of others.

 

[Steven Holt]

Your 4k streamed video has 4:1 compression

You're not getting it : IT DOES NOT MATTER. Even with the compression, there is more than enough bandwidth to cover the 20 to 20 audio spectrum. Even if you had the hearing of a dog or (maybe) a bat, you would not hear it. Think about it : even at 4:1 compression, 4K is still 4K.

 

[r042wal]

I think there is a confusion between audio compression and data compression going on here.

Or, intentional trolling . . .

Jimshoe, you help take the enjoyment out of opening a legitimate discussion on this board. Sorry I brought to topic up. Have a great day everyone!

 

[voodooless]

Your expertise is always welcome

Well, since you asked, I think you’ve fallen pray to people that:

- have no idea how IP networks work
- have no idea how networking protocols work
- have no idea how PC’s work
- have no idea of how audio compression works
- have no idea how digital audio works
- have no idea how normalization works
- have no idea how to conduct listening tests
- take anecdotes as evidence
- think their hearing is infallible

.. I probably forgot a few others ..

Now, none of this means that a version of an album on your favorite streaming service is the same as in your CD collection. There are usually dozens of versions of albums, especially if they are popular and older. But this also doesn’t mean the worst version ends up at the streaming service.

 

[Jimshoe]

Jimshoe, you help take the enjoyment out of opening a legitimate discussion on this board. Sorry I brought to topic up. Have a great day everyone!

Please stick around to get some clarity on the areas where you have been misinformed. Lots of real experts here, ask (nicely, with an open mind) and you might find it helpful

 

[Keith_W]

In any discussion about streaming, the term "compression" is always misunderstood. There are two meanings for the term "compression", when it comes to streaming:

- Dynamic range compression. Might be intentionally applied, or may be due to poor source material.
- File compression, either lossless or lossy.

I get annoyed by people who say that streaming services are "compressed" which is why the sound quality is poor. If they meant the former, then yes of course it is poor. If they meant the latter, then I would have to disagree. There is nothing wrong with lossless compression, and even lossy compression can be difficult to pick unless you really know what you are listening for.

 

[sergeauckland]

I heard, and this is a quote, "... it is worth noting that some streaming services may use dynamic range compression (DRC) or other processing techniques to make the audio sound louder or more consistent across different tracks. This can result in a reduction in dynamic range compared to the original recording."

Totally wrong. They may use volume levelling, but that's completely different to dynamic range compression.

S.

 

[TSB]

Totally wrong. They may use volume levelling, but that's completely different to dynamic range compression.

S.

More information here: https://artists.spotify.com/en/help/article/loudness-normalization, to quote:

We adjust tracks to -14 dB LUFS, according to the ITU 1770 (International Telecommunication Union) standard.

• We normalize an entire album at the same time, so gain compensation doesn’t change between tracks. This means the softer tracks are as soft as you intend them to be.
• We adjust individual tracks when shuffling an album or listening to tracks from multiple albums (e.g. listening to a playlist).

Positive or negative gain compensation gets applied to a track while it’s playing.

• Negative gain is applied to louder masters so the loudness level is -14 dB LUFS. This lowers the volume in comparison to the master - no additional distortion occurs.
• Positive gain is applied to softer masters so the loudness level is -14 dB LUFS. We consider the headroom of the track, and leave 1 dB headroom for lossy encodings to preserve audio quality.
  Example: If a track loudness level is -20 dB LUFS, and its True Peak maximum is -5 dB FS, we only lift the track up to -16 dB LUFS.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

I am puzzled by the ‘audiophool’ and streaming. Don’t get me wrong, I think streaming can very convenient and is a great way to hear music that you don’t have in your collection. As a matter of fact, I have a Tidal account although I don’t use it much.

However, no matter how good your Internet connection is, there is not the same bandwidth for hi-res music as there is on a local system hardwired with interconnects to coax or i2s. Also, factor in sources like Qobuz, Tital and the like, they are heard to have stripped down copies to conserve bandwidth (compressed) and facilitate more efficient streaming - this being the reason why the same Redbook in your CD collection sounds better than the Redbook CD from a streaming service.

Is anyone on this page with me? How does the audiophool that believes in directional fuses and directional wires reconcile streaming in their mega-thousand dollar rigs?

No.

I never had a problem streaming through a standard copper supply. I switched to fibre a few months ago because, here in the UK, BT are upgrading my local exchange and I had a long series of outages. The told me as of end 2022 about 32m of 65m population had access to BT fibre and that will increase by 15m in 2023. I went with Virgin and get 250-300mb. The main thing is not to use wireless repeater, only use wired access points, if you need them.

 

[Dismayed]

Well, since you asked, I think you’ve fallen pray to people that:

- have no idea how IP networks work
- have no idea how networking protocols work
- have no idea how PC’s work
- have no idea of how audio compression works
- have no idea how digital audio works
- have no idea how normalization works
- have no idea how to conduct listening tests
- take anecdotes as evidence
- think their hearing is infallible

.. I probably forgot a few others ..

Now, none of this means that a version of an album on your favorite streaming service is the same as in your CD collection. There are usually dozens of versions of albums, especially if they are popular and older. But this also doesn’t mean the worst version ends up at the streaming service.

LOL! Nothing in your list matters. All that’s needed is a comparison of the streamed data that comes out on the computer to the CD.

 

[voodooless]

LOL! Nothing in your list matters. All that’s needed is a comparison of the streamed data that comes out on the computer to the CD.

Not if people think that playback of the same file on their local computer vs a network drive makes a difference…

Besides, these kind of checks have been done, and in many cases it turned out the files were identical. Sometimes they are not, different master seem to be used.

 

[buz]

Not if people think that playback of the same file on their local computer vs a network drive makes a difference…

Besides, these kind of checks have been done, and in many cases it turned out the files were identical. Sometimes they are not, different master seem to be used.

Those same people probably also think cables need to be made of cryo treated silver (the fiber in particular)

 

[badboygolf16v]

I'd like to see how the OP gets on at Hydrogenaudio.

 

[Koeitje]

However, no matter how good your Internet connection is, there is not the same bandwidth for hi-res music as there is on a local system hardwired with interconnects to coax or i2s.

This is simply wrong. 384kHz/24bit stereo in PCM is only 18,43 Mbit. My internet connection is 1 Gbit. I can have 50+ 384kHz/24bit stereo PCM streams active at the same time.

My understanding is if a streaming company is using compressed source material, a lot of the dynamic range gets stripped out.

Lossy compression isn't the same as dynamic range compression. I think you are mixing up different types of compression.

More information here: https://artists.spotify.com/en/help/article/loudness-normalization, to quote:

This doesn't mean the dynamic range is compressed. It may happen, but it is not guaranteed. Normalization doesn't mean dynamic range compression by default, it depends on the playback option you select in Spotify. The regular option has no DRC.

 

[buz]

This is simply wrong. 384kHz/24bit stereo in PCM is only 18,43 Mbit. My internet connection is 1 Gbit. I can have 50+ 384kHz/24bit stereo PCM streams active at the same time.

But but but, even 25gbit (which in principle my fiber could do, except that it's patched with 10gbit optics because routing 25gbit is HARD) is not enough to run uncompressed hdmi 2.1.

SCNR

 

[voodooless]

But but but, even 25gbit (which in principle my fiber could do, except that it's patched with 10gbit optics because routing 25gbit is HARD) is not enough to run uncompressed hdmi 2.1.

You poor sod, how do you even do 1080p Netflix

You must be lucky video compression is 4:1

 

[Koeitje]

But but but, even 25gbit (which in principle my fiber could do, except that it's patched with 10gbit optics because routing 25gbit is HARD) is not enough to run uncompressed hdmi 2.1.

SCNR

That is true. Lossless video is actually quite a big step up from what we currently see on consumer formats if you are using a big screen.

 

[Dismayed]

Not if people think that playback of the same file on their local computer vs a network drive makes a difference…

Besides, these kind of checks have been done, and in many cases it turned out the files were identical. Sometimes they are not, different master seem to be used.

Sorry, but what people ‘think’ is irrelevant if unsupported by evidence.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I tried some simplified multiplication:
4K 60Hz-progressive bandwidth (@10 bit depth) = (3840 x 2160) x (3 x 10) x 60 = 14,929,920,000 bits/s, c 15 Gbit/s