The Anti-Snake Oil Thread

[simplex]

Since we already have a rather entertaining thread about snake oil theories, I thought it might be nice to start a thread collecting links and docs regarding content that puts audio-related snake oil theories where they belong: in the book of myths, in the poison cabinet, in the wastebin, or whatever your preference is.

To perform this task, a certain dose of science, engineering, and math is not only helpful, but indeed very much needed in order to put scientific proof against insubstantial assertions. So if you find content that fits in this category please feel free to post it here, and of course: discuss our finds!

I'll start with a series of articles published by Jim Lesurf, University of St. Andrews, Scotland. I found part 6 (Wires and Cables), the articles about 'skin effect', and about phase shift in audio cables interesting reads for a start. Didn't have enough spare time yet to work through all of his content.

These audio related articles are part of the series The Scots Guide To Electronics.

 

[sergeauckland]

Jim's articles were pretty much the only thing worth reading in HiFi News some years ago. I haven't taken the magazine for years now, so don't know if he's still writing there, but both Jim and Rod Elliott Elliott Sound Products - The Audio Pages (Main Index) (sound-au.com) are some of the few that make any sense.

S.

 

[Descartes]

Now there is AudioHolic and Amir fortunately, to debunk the snake oil of the audio industry!

 

[goldenpiggy]

I've been using inexpensive commercial cables and connectors all of my life for home use, live sound rigs, and commercial install projects: Belden, Gepco, Canare, Panduit, Neutrik, AMP, Carol, etc. The name of the game is low capacitance, tight tolerance/small statistical variance, high quality dielectric/insulators (e.g. teflon in plenum-rated cables), and good shield coverage without overly increasing the capacitance. Since they're mass produced, they're cheap, and since they have to meet certain standards, they have tight QC and don't vary much from one foot to the next or one pull-box to the next.

So it was quite interesting to find out Belden got into the audiophile market with their Iconoclast and BAV lines. Very cheap compared to snake oil cables, but expensive compared to their commercial stuff. I didn't know what to make of it at first.

Reading their posts makes me think the added cost is more in the material and low volume than marketing, and their Iconoclast line is indeed anti-snake oil.
https://www.iconoclastcable.com/blog/

 

[Raindog123]

collecting links and docs regarding content that puts audio-related snake oil theories where they belong

This!? (remember GNU? )

 

[Speedskater]

So it was quite interesting to find out Belden got into the audiophile market with their Iconoclast and BAV lines. Very cheap compared to snake oil cables, but expensive compared to their commercial stuff. I didn't know what to make of it at first.

It's an embarrassment that the Belden (and now Blue Jeans Cable) names are associated with this snake oil product line.

 

[Rockdog]

I've been using inexpensive commercial cables and connectors all of my life for home use, live sound rigs, and commercial install projects: Belden, Gepco, Canare, Panduit, Neutrik, AMP, Carol, etc. The name of the game is low capacitance, tight tolerance/small statistical variance, high quality dielectric/insulators (e.g. teflon in plenum-rated cables), and good shield coverage without overly increasing the capacitance. Since they're mass produced, they're cheap, and since they have to meet certain standards, they have tight QC and don't vary much from one foot to the next or one pull-box to the next.

So it was quite interesting to find out Belden got into the audiophile market with their Iconoclast and BAV lines. Very cheap compared to snake oil cables, but expensive compared to their commercial stuff. I didn't know what to make of it at first.

Reading their posts makes me think the added cost is more in the material and low volume than marketing, and their Iconoclast line is indeed anti-snake oil.
https://www.iconoclastcable.com/blog/

I don't know, I'm kind of thinking they saw the thousand point margins the "God hewn cables from heaven" people are selling, probably did some market research and saw companies actually have some sales volume peddling this crap, and jumped right in.

If they want credibility now, they can publish a true controlled DB test, but I highly doubt they will. Even if they did, I'd stick with parameters that you cite, which I agree are keys.

 

[Raindog123]

and their Iconoclast line is indeed anti-snake oil.

...hanging right next to other "names". [if true]

 

[goldenpiggy]

Speaker cable for Jazz! And wouldn't you know it, JBL for "Rock." (That was the overwhelming opinion of "JBL sound" when I lived there 10 years ago.)

It was easy to find and afford "cheap" snake oil cables in Japan. I could (and did) buy 7N Ortofon cables at Yodobashi and did not feel guilty about the wife and two kids back at the apartment.

Did it sound any different than my $2.50/ft MCM Electronics 12AWG OFC Sound King? Not one bit.

 

[Descartes]

...hanging right next to other "names". [if true]

View attachment 122241

So funny

 

[Paulz]

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa9c2f-high-fidelity-cables-nps-1260-contact-enhancer-tweaks

This has some great ad copy, a lot of "science" to be debunked!

 

[Wes]

Wow!

Despite the super pricing, nano particles should get further into contact area crevices.

I'll stick to Caig or similar.

 

[Descartes]

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa9c2f-high-fidelity-cables-nps-1260-contact-enhancer-tweaks

This has some great ad copy, a lot of "science" to be debunked!

This is hilarious some people really buy this stuff?

 

[Paulz]

Wow!

Despite the super pricing, nano particles should get further into contact area crevices.

I'll stick to Caig or similar.

ok, but that doesn't seem to be the point of the deep dive into theory that the copy "explains." That's what was er "funny" I thought, it's so ambitious that it screams for a higher level of real scrutiny.

 

[Wes]

String field theory screams for a higher level of real scrutiny.

 

[Paulz]

Sure, but string theory is a topic from a communications standpoint mostly relevant within the physics community itself. I just think that since the magic goo was marketed to audio consumers with this ad copy, said copy would be fertile ground for debunking and discussing on that level.

But maybe that's just a guilty pleasure as the whole snake oil thing is just a distraction at this point, distracting from more pertinent inquiry.

 

[morpheusX]

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa9c2f-high-fidelity-cables-nps-1260-contact-enhancer-tweaks

Hurray, nail varnish for cables ... It will be a HIT with the wife

 

[Paulz]

Ha!! Oh yeah, well what about this!

This new contact and enhancer is not just a contact enhancer it is an advanced “High Fidelity” Total Connection Treatment material. It works on many different levels and in many ways other than just raising conductivity like contact Enhancers. This product also and primarily works in the magnetic realm to support the magnetic transfer of spin much more efficiently form electron to electron. It helps communicate the spin or the magnetic force much better and lowered distortions in the process.

Lol

 

[Rockdog]

I tried it, and I can't explain it, but it just makes everything better. And, that's really what I want, everything to be indescribably better.. Bass, treble, mids, dynamics, even musicality.. better.

I'll let my half bottle go for $400. PM me..

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I tried it, and I can't explain it, but it just makes everything better. And, that's really what I want, everything to be indescribably better.. Bass, treble, mids, dynamics, even musicality.. better.

I'll let my half bottle go for $400. PM me..

You drank only half?