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The “Real” Speaker Preference Test

Kevin1956

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Does anyone have any actual facts and figures to show if speakers that have been designed to apply the Harman research findings have actually made any significant sales inroads with the buying public? The ultimate Preference Test is whether people are parting with their hard earned money when given the option and ability to compare in the marketplace. Or are the top selling names in the marketplace (whoever they may have been) still the same?
 
Does anyone have any actual facts and figures to show if speakers that have been designed to apply the Harman research findings have actually made any significant sales inroads with the buying public? The ultimate Preference Test is whether people are parting with their hard earned money when given the option and ability to compare in the marketplace. Or are the top selling names in the marketplace (whoever they may have been) still the same?
You would have to ask the manufacturers directly I think, sales numbers with that level of detail are rarely shared.

I guess as a proxy you could look at how many speakers in a given brand's portfolio have included waveguides over the years.

Alternatively you could try and create a correlation between preference score and product (star) ratings or sales rankings on Amazon / Crutchfield. However, you'd need to control for price elasticity if you use sales numbers.
 
Here in the UK, I'd perhaps unkindly add that UK dealers are sadly more often than not, around twenty to forty years behind the times by and large where speaker design is concerned. Peeps like 'our' @Purité Audio are notable exceptions and as said in the post above, high-end audio is 'eye-fi' by and large I now feel and price governed, the higher the better.
 
Does anyone have any actual facts and figures to show if speakers that have been designed to apply the Harman research findings have actually made any significant sales inroads with the buying public?

Not really reliable figures, but whenever I have seen charts on amazon showing most successful products within a category like portable bluetooth speakers, party speakers, Ghettoblaster and alike, JBL was dominant. Not only in terms of sales figures and highest number of products on the list, but frequently being the most expensive among the most sold products.

One might presume this is due to appealing pricing or good brand image of JBL, but something tells me there is more to that. If you want to be constantly successful in such competitive market, you have to really meet your consumers´ demands and beat the competition when it comes to actual listening tests.

Harman brands are also frequently appearing among most successful products in earphone, headphone, soundbar categories and alike. Maybe not as dominant, but obviously successful.

This seems to be in stark contrast with stereo speakers, particularly the more expensive ones. I wonder, why?
 
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In the old days, people bought the 4622 and later 4722 for both home stereo and home cinema:
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and sometimes 4670or 4675

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screenshots from this catalog:
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Meyer is in this hall now.
What can JBL (or Meyer)) offer for home use now instead of 4722?..
 
Yes, it’s always been an interesting question I think.

Scientifically, in certain fields, you do a follow up from the lab to the real world.

So for instance in vaccine development you’ve got all the stages from pre-clinical, to phase 1 clinical trials with small group groups carefully controlling for variables, to phase 2, clinical trials with larger groups, to phase 3 trials … all carefully controlled for variables.

And when you have success … then you release it into the world.

And in phase 4, you follow up studying the success of the vaccine in the messier, un controlled real-world conditions.

Tracking long-term safety , real world effectiveness.

But in the case of speakers developed via a manufacturer like Harman Kardon, we’re familiar with how all the “ phase 123 lab work” was done and the results.

But as far as I know, there’s no follow up “ real world” tracking, to see how speakers designed under carefully controlled blind conditions fair in terms of consumer preferences in the real world. The ultimate point of a vaccine is its use in the real world outside of scientifically controlled conditions. The ultimate point of a consumer loudspeaker is its use in the real world outside carefully controlled, listening tests. So how do they fare? Does the quality of the sound overwhelm enough of the other real world variables to have made the project worthwhile?

If Harman tracked that and came to any conclusions, I’d be interested in the findings.

(not that this is necessary for us to already have gained useful information from the controlled tests… but it still seems a sort of obvious question to ask about the ultimate success of the project)
 
The ultimate Preference Test is whether people are parting with their hard earned money when given the option and ability to compare in the marketplace.
That's very far from the "ultimate Preference Test" considering the number of factors that go into a person's buying decision that have nothing to do with the sound. Even when trying to do so, people often base it on some demo in a shop which has so many confounding factors that it's ultimately little better, or perhaps actually worse than, buying blind.

The studies that successfully narrow down the factor being tested to the solely what people are hearing are the "ultimate Preference Test".

However, in any case we can see that there are many successful audio companies that follow the science: JBL/Revel/Harmon, KEF, Ascend Acoustics, Genelec, Adam Audio, Neumann, Kali, etc. and so on. The number of companies following the science and being successful has grown in the decades since Toole's original research at NRC. The fact that audio woo still permeates the space is no fault of the science. That's a people problem.
 
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One indirect and anecdotal way to assess is the used market.

B&W, Focal and KEF are still the dominant players in terms of inventory in the used market. What this tells me, that at the very least high end, HiFi speakers sold in the last few years are B&W, Focal and KEF. Two of these speaker companies don't follow the speaker science pioneered by Harman when Dr. Toole and Dr. Olive was there.

I think in the next few years you may see that trend down.
 
The topic of sales as a proxy for consumer preference has been studied. But it only tells you what consumers bought, not necessarily why they bought it or if they truly preferred it over other options. There are so many factors contributing to consumer hi-fi purchases, after all, and there's simply no possible way to isolate for actual listening preference. I haven't bought that much equipment in my life, but every time I've done so, availability, appearance, recommendations from others, brand admiration, and of course budget have mingled together to influence my decision.
 
Harman didn’t even apply their own research (yet). The Be line is ugly with the grills off.
I'm unsure what your opinion of the aesthetics of a particular speaker line have to do with anything. And the notion that Harman didn't apply their own research (though of course as anyone familiar with it knows it actually started at the NRC) is simply uninformed.
 
I'm unsure what your opinion of the aesthetics of a particular speaker line have to do with anything. And the notion that Harman didn't apply their own research (though of course as anyone familiar with it knows it actually started at the NRC) is simply uninformed.

The research showed that brand and aesthetics strongly influenced speaker preference.
 
we can see that there are many successful audio companies that follow the science: JBL/Revel/Harmon, KEF, Ascend Acoustics, Genelec, Adam Audio, Neumann, Kali, etc. and so on.

Me thinks, the number of successful companies not following ´the science´ is much, much longer. Not to speak of those being surprisingly successful in recent years openly opposing the ´Harman science´, promoting their own understanding of superior sound quality: first and foremost Kii Audio, B&O, B&W, Dynaudio, Sonos, Bose, Perlisten, Magico, Focal, Elac, to name just a few, who definitely would have both the engineering capabilities and manpower to optimize measurements.

An interesting example to discuss is B&W, as they were following ´the science´ for quite a while. Remember some pretty linear, in the traditional sense ´neutral´, monitors in studios originating from the 1990s (Matrix 801, DM600). They had abandoned the idea of ideal anechoic frequency response, and undoubtedly had thrown quite a number of axioms on ´linearity´ out of the window, beginning somewhen in the late 1990s, and immediately started to being pretty successful with their higher end speakers.

B&W, Focal and KEF are still the dominant players in terms of inventory in the used market. What this tells me, that at the very least high end, HiFi speakers sold in the last few years are B&W, Focal and KEF.

It is an indirect indicator of what has been bought in mass quantities over the course of the last 2 or 3 decades. So indeed, absence of used products is indirect proof of unsuccessful products in recent past.

So, what do you make of the almost total absence of used high end speakers, which back in the day had been marketed as ´perfectly measuring´, ´ designed with utmost sound research´, ´perfectly in line with the internal science of good sound´, or ´proven to be successful in blind comparison tests against the competition´. That was the message for lots of Harman brands, was it not? I mean, Revel under Harman was basically marketed as the brand ´incorporating scientific ideals´, and lots of up-price JBLs were heavily marketed like that as well. Was not really following the beginning of these campaigns, but would roughly date them from like 2000 to around 2015.

So, if ´the science´ was successful in understanding people´s buying decisions, and leading to vastly superior products, we would see a lot of them now on the used market. Perfect timing. Where are they? Probably have never been produced and sold, would be a logical conclusion. Which coincides with what Dr. Olive was reporting, that Harman´s internal research institution turned towards earphones, headphones, immersive audio and surround, more or less abandoning loudspeaker research in the early 2010s.

But the used market is also an indicator of what people are dissatisfied with by today. Otherwise they would not sell it, right? While I can easily understand why people sell Focals or B&Ws in mass quantities - they have changed their sound tuning, they might not meet today´s expectation in terms of sound character, they are difficult to set up in a new room, majority of them is chunky - it is difficult to find an explanation for KEFs being sold. Other than lots of people are dissatisfied with the sound, which cannot be easily explained by sounding different in different rooms over moving. So, why?

Harman didn’t even apply their own research (yet).

Without having any insights or having ever been into commercial side of hi-fi or pro audio, I would assume they did. Literally tens of millions of portable bluetooth speakers, boomboxes, party speakers, headphones, earphones were marketed under JBL brand, and made it undoubtedly the market leader in several of these categories. It is not a stretch to assume the research was advantageous in such competitive markets.

It just seems not to have worked out for high end stereo loudspeakers. At least I haven't seen a single successful product coming out of that yet. And let us face it: if ´loudspeaker research´ was abandoned almost 15 years ago (according to Dr. Olive), after decades of heavily marketing ´research-based speakers´, do you seriously believe they would start implementing it in future?

Mind you, they have just bought B&W, presumably beginning to promote these products as their true loudspeaker heritage and spearhead of sound quality research.
 
If consumers were forced to buy speakers blind and level matched then I’m sure those designed with Harman principles would sell best.

Other way ´round: If they are reliable being rated best under blind and matched conditions, I would expect them to sell at least on a decent, if not dominant level, under sighted conditions in existing shops.

You are basically saying that the vast majority of consumers are choosing expensive speakers solely by the looks, which they knowingly perceive as inferior in terms of sound quality. I see no evidence for that. And I did not notice any B&W, Focal or Wilson looking so irresistible in the eyes of potential buyers, that this reverses inferior results in a listening test. If things would be that easy, Harman would have hired a few products designers from B&W and Focal, and made it to at least the market dominance they have with portable speakers.
 
Other way ´round: If they are reliable being rated best under blind and matched conditions, I would expect them to sell at least on a decent, if not dominant level, under sighted conditions in existing shops.

I see these two factors as totally disconnected. Sighted bias is extremely strong. Add the effects of sales personnel trained to manipulate the customer in order to clinch the sale, and a customer "in an existing shop under sighted conditions" doesn't have a chance.

Only a rigorously controlled blind test has any chance of providing a listener with truly valuable information. Even more ponderous, troublesome and annoying, a double-blind test will yield information about both the device under test and the capabilities of the listener ... who I often regard as the true DUT.

And then the listener takes what they purchased from the shop, with its acoustic conditions, to their home, with its different acoustic conditions, and things get really interesting. :oops:
 
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Does anyone have any actual facts and figures to show if speakers that have been designed to apply the Harman research findings have actually made any significant sales inroads with the buying public?
No, it does not work that way.
Harman research was not developed with that objective, they where trying to find a better way to evaluate speaker performance, as opposed to how consumer product report evaluation was done. A more scientific approach to a very subjective task.
Speaker, because of the situation they have to operate with, the way we listen to them, cannot be accurately measured in their natural environment, so objectivity/measurements, will only take you so far.
It never reached out very far outside this quarters and even here, the acceptation is not accepted by all and for good reasons.
 
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