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Testing Open Power Cord interference in Interconnect Cables (video)

new2hifi

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A quick video dealing with claims that a power cord that is not driving something can't be source of AC interference:


Hi Amir:

New member here. This video of yours forced me to join here. I did the exact same experiment a while ago with the non-contact voltage tester. And I had three different results.

  1. The unshielded power cord sounded the alarm on the non-contact voltage tester on any sensitivity setting
  2. The single shielded power cord did not sound alarm on the low sensitivity but did on the high sensitivity
  3. The double shielded power cord did not sound alarm on either low or high sensitivity setting on non-contact voltage tester. I could touch the power cord with the front probe of the non-contact voltage tester on high sensitivity setting and still no alarm (upon repeated attempts sometimes there will be one brief beep and then silence)

The shielded power cords I used in my experiment were not audiophile branded but they were bought from a general power cord supplier and from outside they just look like normal power cords.

I'll appreciate if you can comment on my observations and if you think shielded power cords have any benefits around low level signal cables.

Thanks
 
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ayane

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I'll appreciate if you can comment on my observations and if you think shielded power cords have any benefits around low level signal cables.

Thanks
I'm not Amir, but this largely boils down to "there are no benefits" for two reasons:

1. To keep it simple, if we continue Amir's circuit analogy, since the "shield" is metallic, it will experience a small leakage current caused by capacitive coupling to the AC signal in the live wire inside the cable right next to it. In other words, it will be playing the role of in the capacitor that Amir plays in his video with the unshielded cable. Because the person holding the instrument and the shield are basically at the same electric potential, there will not be a current through the tester caused by the shield, because voltage is necessary to cause current. Of course, nothing is perfect in the real world, and with extremely sensitive equipment, you can still be able to pick up some tiny current because not all of the EF saturates the shield, and a little bit will pass through it and again form a second, tinier capacitor in parallel with the first one. Using thicker conductors for the shield will prevent how much can ultimately pass through. There's probably also an even teeny-tinier third capacitor in series with the first one since the person might be a few microvolts off from ground, although this is basically undetectable.

2. None of this is relevant anyway because the induced current in the cable (which is insignificantly low in the unshielded cable) is easily washed out by the noise floor of actual electronics, which is the case in unshielded cables anyway, simply because of input impedance. The power supply's job is to keep separate the noise and distortion in the incoming power from the audio circuit, which is done well by competently designed electronics anyway.

Shielding can matter when running an unshielded cable carrying low-voltage audio signals, like output from a phono cartridge or from a microphone, but this is remedied by using shielding in those cables. Remember that there is likely plenty of EF noise in the environment coming from other sources anyway, so a shielded power cable won't do much. Keep in mind that the cabling inside the wall isn't shielded in the first place...

Edit: here is @John_Siau from Benchmark showing the effects of using star-quad cables for audio signals - this doesn't apply to capacitance so much as it does to inductance, but the latter is a bigger issue in audio anyway, and star-quad cable is an actual remedy to the problem. Like with all things, distance matters as well.
 
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Katji

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Perhaps promote it to the top of every speaker review so newbies can inform themselves before they go in all guns blazing on the “lols”
Together with the standard brief explanation of Klippel. Highlighted box, whether at the top or where it is now.
 

AudioX3

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Danny's response to the GR Research review of Amir's and then using red herring / straw man arguements to "counter" evidentiary findings was the last straw for me on GR Research. Danny has gotten full of himself or at least made it clear with his own call out videos. Beware. Folksy does not equal truthful nor honest. Anecdotes are divergents. Sprinkling in buzz words like musical, warm, sweet - those are the words of a feel good club. By all means be a part of that club and enjoy it. Stay true to your tribe. But I am quite happy having taken the audiophile journey to have found the joys of simplicity, solid measurable quality (which also I can hear) and that my system actually sounds great and was reasonably purchased. I don't need to search for holy grails and feel insecure about there must be something better and mystical or mythical.

I have founds solid transparent equipment end to end is the "synergistic system" I want, and if I want to tweek to taste, a digital PEQ lets me do whatever I want within reason.

And a tip for anyone, if you want to try Open Baffle, and I love them done right, do yourself a favor and go with Clayton Shaw and his Spatial Audio Labs. GR Research whose Open Baffle speakers get praise, and sure they are good, are not worth it, they are more expensive, you need to build them, they are cumbersome, and add to it, GR Research is consistently plagued delayed on parts and now with Amir's review, shows the parts have quality control issues.

Lexicon Pre/Pro, Adcom Amps, Monoprice DAC/PEQ, 14 or 12 guage speaker wire, basic but solid interconnects, and Spatial Audio M4 turbo speakers with Gallo surrounds and center. Neutral sound, incredible soundstage. Happy listener stereo or theater. I thank Amir for helping me see the light and stop buying more and more expensive gear. Now I just listen and enjoy and live without FUD regarding my audio equipment.
 
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Jim Shaw

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I second this opinion, but let's also acknowledge the unfortunate reality that there exist a large number of people to whom it does not matter. Science deniers are the exact same anywhere, whether it's in audio engineering, environmental science, or biotechnology - they plug up their ears to evidence and only swear by their lay opinion espoused by grifters.
This is why courses at decent colleges require prerequisites for higher-level courses. Teaching information theory, modulation, and noise, eg. EE460 to a gallery that might not have mastered trigonometry or differential equations is a fool's errand. The unwashed will call this elitism, but the old adage seems true for many:
buy them books, send them to school, and they'll eat the teacher.

How does one teach the physics of energy, power, and work to someone who just wants to buy a NASCAR auto? :))
 

MattHooper

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Danny is replying to folks having pointed him to this video, that this video only emphasizes Amir "really, REALLY has no idea what he is doing."
(Not to mention some other more pointed insults).

Anyone want to take bets he'll actually provide a technical rebuttal to back up his derision?

Amir: Here's a claim about cables. Let's investigate it. (Amir gives technical explanations with measured evidence to support the explanations).

Danny: Here's My Claim about cables. Take My Word For It. (And take my laughing at the other guy's argument as lending legitimacy to my claim).

I can't figure out who to believe.
 

Lambda

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claims that a power cord that is not driving something can't be source of AC interference:
Never saw this claim.
Many including me pointed out there is no Inductive coupling but captive coupling.

As you rightfully say in this video there is no magnetic field because there is virtually no current

and it was simply created by induction of a parallel run from a nearby live wire. This is why some electrician meters have a Lo-Z mode.
Not induction... captive coupling.

The guy from GR Research. Beef!
Did not see this video.
but amirm said he created a "coil" in his response
the "coil" dose nothing to the to electric filed. only to the magnetic filed (that's not there )
and canceling out because of the bilfila coil.
 

fieldcar

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Not induction... captive coupling.
Yes, capacitive coupling is correct, but I'm not wrong.

They're essentially the same thing. Capacitive coupling is the phenomenon and electromagnetic induction is the source of the effect. Without electromagnetic fields and induction, there is no such thing as capacitance. I wont pretend to remember all the crap about Lorentz and Maxwell, as I've been out of university for almost 20 years now, and I rarely apply advanced physics to my career in industrial automation. I'm sure you knew this if you were attempting to correct me, but it can't hurt to be more accurate about the name of the phenomenon. Thanks!

Capacitive coupling according to wikipedia:
Capacitive coupling is the transfer of energy within an electrical network or between distant networks by means of displacement current between circuit(s) nodes, induced by the electric field. This coupling can have an intentional or accidental effect.


Electric-field-lines-around-a-parallel-plate-capacitor.png
 

Raindog123

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If there is “capacitance“ somewhere — ie the ability to store some excess electrons — then in an AC case there is _always_ an [AC] current that brings and removes these electrons. Thus, there are always both (!) electric and magnetic fields in such AC situation, of about equal strength (energy wise). As per the Maxwell‘s equations, the changing electric field produces magnetic field and viceversa:
E5CE3CFC-E2C9-4044-8B00-D22276458928.jpeg

As one can see from the second equation (so called “Ampere Circuital Law with Maxwell addition”), the changing magnetic field B is produced not only by stationary current J but also by changing electric field dE/dt...

I wrote a long “rebuttal” about all this here a few days ago… but then deleted it, as I did not want it to take us all away from the main, very valid point that @amirm makes (and illustrates so nicely experimentally!) — of even an open [AC!] power cable acting as an antenna, with a real potential (pun intended :) ) to _electromagnetically_ (!) induce currents in nearby circuits.
 
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Lambda

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They're essentially the same thing
only one is cause electric fields and the other by magnetic fields.
so they are not the same.

Induced != induction

inductively coupled or magnetically coupled [1] when they are configured in a way such that change in current through one wire induces a voltage across the ends of the other wire through electromagnetic induction. A changing current through the first wire creates a changing magnetic field around it by Ampere's circuital law. The changing magnetic field induces an electromotive force (EMF or voltage) in the second wire by Faraday's law of induction.
 

HiFidFan

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Oh for Pete's sake, @amirm is doing the 'youtube clickbait' exaggerated facial expressions! :facepalm:
 
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amirm

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Oh for Pete's sake, @amirm is doing the 'youtube clickbait' exaggerated facial expressions! :facepalm:
You can complain when I make a large cut out of myself that way. Until then all you are seeing is my lack of creativity on this front!!! :)
 

HiFidFan

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You can complain when I make a large cut out of myself that way. Until then all you are seeing is my lack of creativity on this front!!! :)

:D
 
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