test with 800 hz tone to record transients. is the kali LP 6 defect ?. canton look much better

[bennybbbx]

Ahh, so you're talking about the bass...

Well, based on your measurements, the Kalis seem to have significantly more and more extended bass than your Cantons. Having more of that <80 Hz bass can subjectively lead to an impression of "slower" bass (when audiophiles talk about "quick" and "dry" bass, it's very often due to a bass deficient frequency response). So all else being equal, a speaker with more extended bass can be interpreted by some as having a slower transient response, simply because the cycle speed of those low frequencies puts a limit on how quickly they can "turn on".

The second issue is the room-induced peak around 80 Hz in the frequency response of the Kalis. If you correct this through EQ, the transient response of your speakers will improve in the proximity of that peak's frequency.

the testtones are 800 hz and 1.4 khz in the wave screenshots. and on a speaker with good transients the 1. cycle should be at near same height as the other cycles. see the headphone result or the celestion speaker result. Rew measurements are without EQ correct. but to compare kali and canton i i use speaker measure software arc or roomeq or mfreeformequalizer. I try alot. I also use for compare a live song in a Hall that have not much bass. The canton sound as i sit in the recording Hall and the Kali LP6 as i hear thru the door. i compare with headphone. and kali is in stereo width more diffrent as the Canton compare t headphone.Kali have less stereo width. Kali have good direction results in this test https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eview-studio-monitor.17978/page-4#post-585034. in this
https://www.hedd.audio/wp-content/downloads/HEDD-Lineariser-Manual.pdf
you can see at page 29 the phase without correct on the hedd. it look better as my measure results

and here is a song that have a large diffrence in stereo width and the reverb sound not realistic on kali

its really strange , also that for many speakers there is no phase measure. maybe kali help a linearizer VST too, to sound better.

 

[bennybbbx]

I do now measure with closed and open bassport. phase error is simular. I understand now better how can read phase values and compare them on a specific frequency in REW. please correct this if i understand something still wrong. the mdat https://easyupload.io/4kkrpw

REW phase measure SPL&Phase

1. click on Controls
In controls window:
2. click Estimate IR Delay
3. Click Unwrap Phase
4. CLick Generate Minimum Phase

now click on a frequency (for example 1 khz)and look the Excess Phase value

the excess Phase i get with loopback i list below

near to 0 is better. the celestion speaker have now not good phase but in the transient tone burst record test it is best speaker

1. Headphone 0.5 deg : the old headphone.mdat have 80% distortion at 40-50 hz. the create minimum phase does show large values in Excess Phase and fail. so need the new i attach
2. Canton -70 deg
3. Kali -142 deg
4. Celestion speaker 182

with closed bassport distortion get lots higher. i hear on basedrum and mesure show too. at 50 hz 3 rd harmonic get very high to 7.6% . when bass port is open then only 0,87%. the measure was only on 76 db loudness. I calibrate REW with sound level meter.

 

[bennybbbx]

There's no connection between woofer diameter and transient response, so if you're measuring differences in transient response between those two speakers, it's not because one is smaller.

I also had a look at the REW measurements you uploaded.

Canton:

View attachment 96305

Kali:

View attachment 96306

They both appear to use similar crossover filters (apparently 4th-order), with the main differences being that the Canton's crossover is higher in frequency, and that the Kali's bass rings out for longer (presumably because the enclosure is ported, and probably also because there is a high-pass filter in place to limit the woofer's output below the port resonance).

In any case, none of this is to do with the size of the speakers. And none of it is likely to be audible, either.

By far the best explanation IMO for why the Cantons sound wider and more spacious is that they have wider directivity in the upper midrange and high frequencies, due to having a smaller midwoofer and a direct-radiating tweeter (no waveguide).

As to why the Kali sounds like it has less lower-midrange, that's a mystery to me. The amplitude response measurements show that (in-room) the Canton's lower-midrange is recessed relative to the Kalis.

EDIT: added amplitude response

View attachment 96307

how can display the transient response as you do in this post ?. I read that this can show speaker transient precision good and the later curve is the bass driver. the kali reach 200 microseconds later only 20% with bass driver. the canton 70% with bass driver. so canton seem much better in transients. I now have the iloud mtm and i like to see what the curve is for this. they have more stereo width as the Kali and more as the Canton. I also have done burst of 1 cycle then silence and then more cycles and compare 1.4 khz burst with kali, iloud mtm , canton. here is how the 400 hz test burst look in original 400 hz.jpg. so look other frequency too

,

 

[andreasmaaan]

how can display the transient response as you do in this post ?

Once you've taken or imported measurement in REW, click on the "impulse" tab, and then check the "step response" box:

 

[bennybbbx]

Once you've taken or imported measurement in REW, click on the "impulse" tab, and then check the "step response" box:

View attachment 99805

thanks but the results i get are much diffrent in compare to your above curves. I choose estimate delay but it shift only al little. I do upload the mdat that contain both measurements kali and iloud mtm

https://easyupload.io/fvcjat

and here screenshots from what i get. whats wrong ?. in the screenshot can no see, but step response is activate (was default)

 

[andreasmaaan]

thanks but the results i get are much diffrent in compare to your above curves. I choose estimate delay but it shift only al little. I do upload the mdat that contain both measurements kali and iloud mtm

https://easyupload.io/fvcjat

and here screenshots from what i get. whats wrong ?

I'm not exactly sure. Can you send me the MDAT file?

 

[bennybbbx]

I'm not exactly sure. Can you send me the MDAT file?

see the https://easyupload.io/fvcjat link. here you can download

 

[andreasmaaan]

see the https://easyupload.io/fvcjat link. here you can download

That's really weird, the look like this when I open them in mine:

Sorry, I'm a bit hopeless when it comes to using REW, so it's not clear to me which setting of yours is off :-/

 

[andreasmaaan]

Interesting side note: the iLoud uses a linear-phase crossover

 

[bennybbbx]

they are phase linear when they are in FLAT mode. in CAL mode not full. this measure is in FLAT mode. See phase screenshots from me in the MTM thread. also can see that iloud have much faster raise time.

A diffrence between your and my screenshot i see in window (blue text below). On my screenshot stand dbfs und on your %.

 

[andreasmaaan]

they are phase linear when they are in FLAT mode. in CAL mode not full. this measure is in FLAT mode. See phase screenshots from me in the MTM thread. also can see that iloud have much faster raise time.

A diffrence between your and my screenshot i see in window (blue text below). On my screenshot stand dbfs und on your %. View attachment 99826

Ah, ofc! Yeh, it will definitely be harder to read in dB mode.

Did switching that fix it?

 

[bennybbbx]

Once you've taken or imported measurement in REW, click on the "impulse" tab, and then check the "step response" box:

View attachment 99805

which speaker is this. look much better as the Kali LP6

 

[andreasmaaan]

which speaker is this. look much better as the Kali LP6

Oh, lol, this was just a single driver measurement that I had open at the time. I think it was a little Tymphany/Vifa midrange....

Looks good because there is no crossover and it was on an "infinite" baffle with no enclosure.

 

[bennybbbx]

here is my prefernce for Impulse. what settings are diffrent to yours ?. I find nothing that can change display in % instead of dbfs

EDIT: i find where can switch. when move mouse over the left top side of the impulse display there come the magnification buttons and a popup. can change between dbfs and %FS. I change to %FS and now look good

 

[bennybbbx]

here is the impulse of the 10 inch celestion guitar speaker. it look strange or maybe it is because the valve amp invert the signal

 

[andreasmaaan]

here is the impulse of the 10 inch celestion guitar speaker. it look strange or maybe it is because the valve amp invert the signalView attachment 99832

Yeh, doesn't look too weird to me, just inverted

 

[bennybbbx]

here are screenshots of headphones. The AKG K1000 have a large membrane the TH30 small. i think the TH30 sound amazing good and width and was cheaper than my other headphones i have. but i test other too soon

 

[ernestcarl]

That's really weird, the look like this when I open them in mine:

View attachment 99824

View attachment 99825

Sorry, I'm a bit hopeless when it comes to using REW, so it's not clear to me which setting of yours is off :-/

That looks very normal to me — similar, in fact, to the KH120s. It looks rather slow relative to more “time linear” systems. But majority of speakers are like that... and we can’t really claim that majority of speakers are defective, per se. With DSP becoming more widespread and cheaper to implement, we will see more speakers capable producing a linear-phase response in the future — at least that’s what I hope.

 

[andreasmaaan]

That looks very normal to me — similar, in fact, to the KH120s. It looks rather slow relative to more “time linear” systems. But majority of speakers are like that... and we can’t really claim that majority of speakers are defective, per se. With DSP becoming more widespread and cheaper to implement, we will see more speakers capable producing a linear-phase response in the future — at least that’s what I hope.

Yeh, I was saying that it was weird that @bennybbbx's looked so strange, not that these looked weird.

These obviously are perfectly normal step responses

 

[bennybbbx]

That looks very normal to me — similar, in fact, to the KH120s. It looks rather slow relative to more “time linear” systems. But majority of speakers are like that... and we can’t really claim that majority of speakers are defective, per se. With DSP becoming more widespread and cheaper to implement, we will see more speakers capable producing a linear-phase response in the future — at least that’s what I hope.

where can i see KH120 step response ? .please look also on this thread, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...of-the-synth-sound-in-the-attached-mp3.18401/ if you can a hear diffrence between fast and slow tranients. the latest examples are 5 B and 6 b

it seem many people did not hear a big diffrence in stereo width and room size. so it happen that there are many slow speakers. seem best is small speakers and subwoofer for people that hear diffrence. people that not hear diffrence can save alot of money. cheap speakers 2 way with big woofer and mid are then good enough