Test performance of AOP Burson/SPARKOS/SONIC994/1612, .....

[JohnYang1997]

Hold on, I'm not speaking about blind tests, I say that after switching to V6s I hear new stuff in my favorite records. I do not imagine that as I do not intend to do that, I do that during my work, listening to music in the background — when some detail distracts me, and I like, wow, what a new sound I have now! And you just basically say that I am imagining this because of Burson name?

Yea, I have experience quite a few times. It's the subconscious doing tricks on you. Some times it's true some times it's not.

I don't want to be too definite here. So one possible thing that I recently encountered is that the crosstalk is possibly doing it or possibly something else that does some trick to the sound in such way that's audible. You can try to get used to the burson opamp. Then switch back. You will also hear different details pop up from nowhere. It does do it sometimes but not scientific at all.

 

[solderdude]

Well, If I listened to tracks for half a year on a regular basis and only after switching to V6 I started to hear new things it means something, right?)

How does it do that ?
Is there something special inside that lets specific instruments 'pop out suddenly' and other circuits can't ?

What does it mean ?

 

[JohnYang1997]

What is a composite amplifier then? Can you give an example from the web?

Sorry I copied a wrong address in a previous post. The correct address should be this https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b96c/62efa54d464b7fbb7c5bf61906e3cbb9b830.pdf
Also something like this
https://easyeda.com/jeanleflambeur/amp-LM3886-bpa200

 

[solderdude]

If you remember the hp-1 measurements there was essentially no distortion harmonics visible

Ah yes, that one is distortion free.
One could wonder why no one else applies this.
Is it patented ?

 

[JohnYang1997]

Ah yes, that one is distortion free.
One could wonder why no one else applies this.
Is it patented ?

Idk. No one seemed to bother to have this good performance until recent years, where apx555 got released and stuff. Hp1 was already pretty early actually. And on diyaudio forum, there were some old threads about composite amplifiers.
Also look at the power amplifier on the forum comparing to the ones on the market. The distortion is like -130db vs -80db. People are catching up tho. And companies pushing very fast with good performance headphone amplifiers. And hopefully soon for power amps.

 

[solderdude]

Well... it is moot to have such performance level.
Looks nice on paper but from a practical P.O.V. 100dB should be more than enough already

 

[ReAlien]

Yea, I have experience quite a few times. It's the subconscious doing tricks on you. Some times it's true some times it's not.

I don't want to be too definite here. So one possible thing that I recently encountered is that the crosstalk is possibly doing it or possibly something else that does some trick to the sound in such way that's audible. You can try to get used to the burson opamp. Then switch back. You will also hear different details pop up from nowhere. It does do it sometimes but not scientific at all.

I did as you said two days ago. I got used to V6s and then switched back to Opa627. The sound was flat, dull and undetailed in general.

Yes, you might hear new nuances with the old setup, once you found them with the new one, that's part of the tricks our brain plays, but they would be less pronounced.

 

[ReAlien]

How does it do that ?
Is there something special inside that lets specific instruments 'pop out suddenly' and other circuits can't ?

What does it mean ?

I came here to find out things about that.) I do not need to confirm the fact that the change is there, I just want to find out the best way to optimize it to my ears and budget.

 

[solderdude]

That's one way to go about it.
The other way is to find out about perception.

I can understand the fact that you don't need to confirm the change is there.
After all you clearly heard this and why doubt what one hears ?

I am afraid I can't be of much help to help figure out which components in the discrete op-amps are responsible for this nor which other op-amps are capable of improving on this.

 

[trl]

I did as you said two days ago. I got used to V6s and then switched back to Opa627. The sound was flat, dull and undetailed in general.

Yes, you might hear new nuances with the old setup, once you found them with the new one, that's part of the tricks our brain plays, but they would be less pronounced.

Could you please be more specific about the setup/circuit used (sorry if it was told already and I missed that)?

Also, are you speaking about V6 Classic or Vivid? If it's about the Classic, then it's very hard (maybe impossible) to hear any tonality differences between 5532 and V6 Classic (well, perhaps the soundstage might be different, but hard to say), but if it's about Vivid, then indeed it sounds different (more energy in the trebles, different female voices).

I wonder what kind of measurements need to be done to find out why these two opamps (Vivid and Classic) sound different when used in I/V, Low-Pass Filter and gain stages (in output buffer they sound about the same to me)? I remember that freq. response was perfectly flat for both, don't remember the phase delay and not sure about step response; also, if I remember well, THD was about the same for both too and I don't remember any harmonic being over -100dB (hope I remember well).

 

[Julf]

I came here to find out things about that.) I do not need to confirm the fact that the change is there, I just want to find out the best way to optimize it to my ears and budget.

"I want answers, but not anything that challenges my beliefs."

 

[ReAlien]

Could you please be more specific about the setup/circuit used (sorry if it was told already and I missed that)?

Also, are you speaking about V6 Classic or Vivid? If it's about the Classic, then it's very hard (maybe impossible) to hear any tonality differences between 5532 and V6 Classic (well, perhaps the soundstage might be different, but hard to say), but if it's about Vivid, then indeed it sounds different (more energy in the trebles, different female voices).

I wonder what kind of measurements need to be done to find out why these two opamps (Vivid and Classic) sound different when used in I/V, Low-Pass Filter and gain stages (in output buffer they sound about the same to me)? I remember that freq. response was perfectly flat for both, don't remember the phase delay and not sure about step response; also, if I remember well, THD was about the same for both too and I don't remember any harmonic being over -100dB (hope I remember well).

I am talking about Vivids as mentioned above. My gear is: Roon on Windows 10 - custom silver/copper USB cable - Maverick TubeMagic D2 DAC (with V6 Vivids) - Goertz silver interconnect RCA - 1) THX AAA 789 - Verum 1 or 2) Sugden Audition-T - Goertz copper speaker cables - B&W DM603S2.

 

[ReAlien]

"I want answers, but not anything that challenges my beliefs."

I knew someone would try to convert me into his faith. You're mistaking beliefs with real personal experiences.) If a person says that hearing a difference between opamps is impossible why would I challenge his/her real personal experiences? I've heard such talk about cables before.

 

[Veri]

I knew someone would try to convert me into his faith. You're mistaking beliefs with real personal experiences.) If a person says that hearing a difference between opamps is impossible why would I challenge his/her real personal experiences? I've heard such talk about cables before.

You're going to defend the magical properties of silver cables on a forum called 'audio science review' ?

 

[ReAlien]

You're going to defend the magical properties of silver cables on a forum called 'audio science review' ?

What gave you the reason to suspect that? Are you so offended with the fact someone uses silver cables?

 

[trl]

I knew someone would try to convert me into his faith. You're mistaking beliefs with real personal experiences.) If a person says that hearing a difference between opamps is impossible why would I challenge his/her real personal experiences? I've heard such talk about cables before.

I've heard differences between different opamps, especially when used in I/V, LPF and Gain stages. Usually this is happening because some opamps are oscillating and sometimes because they are not 100% compatible with the surrounding circuitry and higher THD or noise may occur.

Like I already said in my above post: between V6 Classic and V6 Vivid there are audible differences (test done with identical equipment in A/B test), but I don't remember seeing different figures in the measurements. Vivid is more bright and full of details, although I remember that freq. response was perfectly flat. I will try to do some measurements with these two opamps, when used in different audio stages of DAC and headamp (I hope this weekend).

I wrote in another post on this forum that MUSES01, when used in I/V of PCM1795 DAC chip, had a way more pleasant and warm sound, with increased soundstage, in an A/B test vs. the same equipment with NE5532 inside. When I measured them with ARTA and RMAA I found out that MUSES01 had an increased THD, especially the first 4-5 harmonics, and I also suspect them of bit of oscillations. Same happened when I used OPA2604 in LPF stage: increased soundstage and mellow & warm sounding, but opamps were heating up like crazy and harmonics got higher and higher every 2-3 minutes (probably because of the opamps getting overheating).

I don't think we should argue about opamps sounding different, because this is true for some audio devices and it's audible in A/B tests and sometimes even measurable. Better, let's find a way to measure these differences, other than freq. response.

 

[solderdude]

Better, let's find a way to measure these differences, other than freq. response

@pkane DeltaWave software and real music as a test signal ?
What else could there be ?

Nulling 2 opamp circuits (for instance L and R channel with different opamps) ?
If there are actual differences you can hear the difference and measure it.

The only disadvantage is that phase differences (that may not be audible) get converted to amplitude differences and can not be told apart from the amplitude differences that exist.

When differences can not be measured in amplitude and time domain perhaps we need to resort to:

 

[trl]

Thanks for sharing the DeltaWave, Frans! I'll skip the Fairy Magic Detector for the moment and get the old school RMAA and ARTA first, then I'll check DeltaWave as well.

I was testing between R and L channel only in audio devices that used singles per channel or were balanced (one opamp on the L and another opamp on the R). This is the easiest way to check for different background noise between opamps. Of course, a scope or a true-RMS DMM might still be needed to check for different volume between channels.

 

[solderdude]

I would expect any volume differences to be caused by resistor tolerances rather than opamps but given the fact not all opamps have similar input currents very small differences could exist, given the low resistance values being used (to keep the noise down and feedback loops stable.

 

[Julf]

You're mistaking beliefs with real personal experiences.

No, I am making a difference between verified evidence and subjective personal perception.