Test and Measurement request for Turntables and Cartridges.

[Balle Clorin]

If case you haven't already noticed, the test records used are eccentric. The yellow line is the wow and flutter of the test disc, the green line is the result once the wow & flutter is taken out of the result:

View attachment 62656

In order to determine wow & flutter and speed accuracy, one has to calculate around the wow built into the test discs. No LP has the speed accuracy of digital sources. Full stop. As I have posted repeatedly, the real issue is not the playback gear, which can evolve, but the discs themselves, which cannot.

Yes exactly. I must have 10 test records including the ones used by National broadcasting Companies, not a single on has correctly centered hole , or without 1-revolution-error, and are quite useless for speed variability tests, and possibly other test only have relative value. Vinyl is is just too technically flawed to bring me any pleasure. I cannot listen to any vinyl system without being annoyed the speed variations (0.1% variations are ver noticeable to me)
I keep my system just for sentimental reasons

 

[Thomas_A]

I have no problem enjoying music from LPs if they are recorded well and if there are no or only a few pops and crackles and if I use speakers (not headphones). Below is a record I have which has got a lot och crackles and noise but sounds ok for me when played over speakers and via ClickRepairRT. The one below is ClickRepaired.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/di46dy4gkc2f6f3/eva1.wav?dl=0

However, it is not the most convenient way and I have difficulties to find the records I want to listen to; they are gathered in a random order at various places; listening room, bedroom and in the basement storage. So I go for streaming most of the time.

 

[dougi]

I've found a local (ie in Australia) seller of the Elipson test record so I have ordered that. Thanks for the advice and I will post comparisons with the HiFi News record with my setup when that is done.

 

[Thomas_A]

I've found a local (ie in Australia) seller of the Elipson test record so I have ordered that. Thanks for the advice and I will post comparisons with the HiFi News record with my setup when that is done.

Good find. Besides the old ones from Denon/CBS the Elipson is IMO the best one today. If you care to set azimuth/crosstalk, you should focus to set it visually as fas as possible. Then measure with a 1 kHz signal and look for both phase and level, fine adjust. I manage near -40 dB crosstalk.

 

[P_M]

Its good to hear comments on which test records are good or not. However, I do feel too much emphasis is being put on it because a good (but not neccessarily best of the best) record is still good enough to compare two cartridges. For example if the original tester (dougi) would run the same test on a cartridge they love v/s a cartridge they hate then you can still get meaningful information and insight out of such a test.

 

[pastorbarrett]

The latest Puffin update included a real-time setting with seemingly effective noise/crackle suppression. Good reports elsewhere.

 

[eliash]

Scientifically you are correct. However, like many speakers produced today, there are better and poorer cartridges/arms/tables. So for those who still want the best out there, testing may be of interest. The market for LP playback is however very limited, it should not, IMO, be priority. Noise- and click-repair may be another interest, and personally, once I tried it, I cannot live without a real-time clickrepair.

My click-repair are ears and brain...as long as it stays in certain limits, also no heavy brain processing needed...and, due to the band selective properties of the human hearing system, critical band (the hearing bands) related vinyl S/N goes up to 80dB...which is not too bad for listening with ambient noise level.

 

[pastorbarrett]

As an aside, when folks talk about a particular cartridge being 'quiet in the groove', assuming correct alignment etc, is it fair to say it's just the frequency response of said cart? Ie high frequency roll-off?

 

[sergeauckland]

As an aside, when folks talk about a particular cartridge being 'quiet in the groove', assuming correct alignment etc, is it fair to say it's just the frequency response of said cart? Ie high frequency roll-off?

Hard to say what 'quiet in the groove' means, but my take on it is that it refers to surface noise. A cartridge with a spiky response and/or arm/cartridge resonances may well exacerbate surface noise, as will a poor stylus. A cartridge with a smooth frequency response, on an arm without major nasty resonances (all arms have resonances, just some are higher Q than others) and with a well polished line-contact stylus should be 'quiet(er) in the groove'

S.

 

[Robin L]

Hard to say what 'quiet in the groove' means, but my take on it is that it refers to surface noise. A cartridge with a spiky response and/or arm/cartridge resonances may well exacerbate surface noise, as will a poor stylus. A cartridge with a smooth frequency response, on an arm without major nasty resonances (all arms have resonances, just some are higher Q than others) and with a well polished line-contact stylus should be 'quiet(er) in the groove'

S.

My experience with needledrops of noisy LPs is that a bigger, conical stylus tracking at higher weight [3 grams instead of 1.5 grams] had less groove noise. Guess it all depends on what one describes as a "noisy" groove. In my experience, noisy included groove wear along with clicks and pops.

 

[Thomas_A]

As an aside, when folks talk about a particular cartridge being 'quiet in the groove', assuming correct alignment etc, is it fair to say it's just the frequency response of said cart? Ie high frequency roll-off?

It could be HF roll off to certain extent but it is multifactorial. My Ortofon OM 40 is noisier compared to my OM10 and Shure V15VxJICO SAS. It can boil down to both polish and HF extension and the distortion products; the OM40 extends to beyond 20 kHz.

 

[eliash]

It could be HF roll off to certain extent but it is multifactorial. My Ortofon OM 40 is noisier compared to my OM10 and Shure V15VxJICO SAS. It can boil down to both polish and HF extension and the distortion products; the OM40 extends to beyond 20 kHz.

I think idle noise is dependent from stylus tip shape (MR, elliptic, etc.) and cart´s inherent frequency transfer function, but certainly always from the source vinyl itself, how grainy it is (some claim low noise vinyl), if it is a DMM pressing, number of copies...as well as the way the noise is weighted afterwards (linear, bandpass, weigthing-filter)

 

[P_M]

If I am not wrong the pops ticks and clicks are centered around 16-17Khz. And typically you see a peak or sort of resonance peak around that frequency in a typical cartridge frequency response as well. I believe that depending on where that peak is you can hear more, or less, pops and clicks. If the peak is further out gives the impression of less high frequency noise. If its in hearing range then it gives impression of a scratchy staticy sound.

 

[Robin L]

If I am not wrong the pops ticks and clicks are centered around 16-17Khz. And typically you see a peak or sort of resonance peak around that frequency in a typical cartridge frequency response as well. I believe that depending on where that peak is you can hear more, or less, pops and clicks. If the peak is further out gives the impression of less high frequency noise. If its in hearing range then it gives impression of a scratchy staticy sound.

The audible component is much lower in frequency. 16/17Khz is way up there, probably outside of my current hearing capabilities.

 

[Thomas_A]

I think idle noise is dependent from stylus tip shape (MR, elliptic, etc.) and cart´s inherent frequency transfer function, but certainly always from the source vinyl itself, how grainy it is (some claim low noise vinyl), if it is a DMM pressing, number of copies...as well as the way the noise is weighted afterwards (linear, bandpass, weigthing-filter)

The key factor is friction. This is depndent both on the vinyl, quality, pressing and th stylus polish. Wet play reduce friction as well as noise.

 

[LTig]

I think idle noise is dependent from stylus tip shape (MR, elliptic, etc.) and cart´s inherent frequency transfer function,

That's my experience as well. The sharper rhe shape and the higher the FR (which I think is a sign of lower moving mass) the less noise and dust is audible. When I changed from MM to MC pickup the first thing I noted was that a long and loud tick changed to a short and quiet dig.