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Test and Measurement request for Turntables and Cartridges.

P_M

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Hi Amir,
it would be great if you can measure some turntables and cartridges. Would be awesome to compare some real visual representation of noise, rumble, thd, imd across the entire band (which in case of turntables would extend all the way to 5hz or lower). and also tonearm resonances.

For testing cartridges and different types of stylus (spherical, elliptical, hyper elliptical, micro ridge/shibata) you will need to settle on one good turntable (and preamp and amp) on which you can test various cartridges and stylus. For test signals you can use test records, there are several.
 

ribosradagast

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This is a tricky business to say the least, since there are so many compromises inherent to vinyl playback.

The only English publication that I know that's measuring and making available data for turntables, etc, is Hi-Fi News, and their coverage is, of course, sadly limited. They do feature a good number of vintage equipments though
 

RayDunzl

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How can they be measured with modern tools without digitizing the results which would obviously despoil the entire effort?
 

stunta

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If a test record were used, wouldn't the test record need to be tested first? How would that be done without a "perfect" turntable setup?
 
OP
P_M

P_M

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How can they be measured with modern tools without digitizing the results which would obviously despoil the entire effort?
Just like the any other test done here for any other analog equipment ? (amps, preamps,...)

If a test record were used, wouldn't the test record need to be tested first? How would that be done without a "perfect" turntable setup?
A "test record" is expected to contain a signal cleaner than the playback cartridge, stylus and turntable.

Now with any DUT (device under test) the rest of the system needs to be constant. So for testing turntables, the same record, cartridge, stylus, preamp need to be used. To test cartridges the turntable, preamp and all other items in the chain need to remain constant.

Initially, it will take a few rounds to detremine a refernce turntable and cartridge to conduct future tests, but thats part of the exercise since we do not readily have a "reference test system" here like the AP testbench. It would still be beter than no testing at all.
 

stunta

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A "test record" is expected to contain a signal cleaner than the playback cartridge, stylus and turntable.

It is "expected", yes. If not verified, then the entire test is questionable.
 

stunta

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I would love to have TT systems tested, but I feel like there are far too many variables. Wear & tear on the stylus, test record, etc. Even with a reference setup, if one accidentally moves anything, then it will need re-calibration. If I do end up buying a tested system exactly in the same configuration, then there are potential variances in tonearm, counterweight, cartridge installation etc.

They way I see it - my TT system is not my go-to system for accuracy; it is primarily for playing records I don't have in digital format and secondarily for the fun and character it provides.
 

DSJR

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This is so difficult... I retain some of the HiFi Choice 'cartridges' books from the 1980's and the results with many cartridges mirrored my findings when the test arm was used (for convenience - a Linn LVX which is a fine cheapy but with copious 'character' to it, especially if the headshell socket works slightly loose and totally unsuitable for many of the pickups tested...). Vinyl, even at it's best, is really for masochists and elderly collectors of LP's who never got rid of them when digital happened (fast approaching my mid 60's I practically put myself in that category now) and I do accept that *some* vinyl cuts were really well done, but surely it's a niche in a niche these days...
 

sergeauckland

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Bear in mind also that test records, certainly frequency response bands, have a very limited life. The Decca test LP which was one of the standard professional test LPs in the 60s and 70s, rated the high frequency bands for 5 plays only. The LP had the same tests on both sides, and the normal procedure was to keep side 2 as a reference and check side 1 against side 2 every 5 plays or so, then scrap the LP (or more likely somebody took it home or it went to maintenance use) when the damage exceeded whatever the user's standards required.

I don't know who's even pressing laboratory standard test LPs these days and how accurate they are.

W&F depends on accurate centering, although it can be compensated for in analysis software, and rumble is much better measured with a bridge rather than an LP but again, who's still manufacturing those?

Measuring turntables is not a trivial endeavour, very time consuming, and hands-on, with very little scope for automation in the way that Kippel does for loudspeakers or AP/MAR/Prism etc for electronics.

S
 
OP
P_M

P_M

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It is "expected", yes. If not verified, then the entire test is questionable.
Frankly I have never heard of such a thing as verifying a test record. Do you buy a pound of anything and question the reference weight used to the calibrate the scale ?

I would love to have TT systems tested, but I feel like there are far too many variables. Wear & tear on the stylus, test record, etc. Even with a reference setup, if one accidentally moves anything, then it will need re-calibration. If I do end up buying a tested system exactly in the same configuration, then there are potential variances in tonearm, counterweight, cartridge installation etc.

They way I see it - my TT system is not my go-to system for accuracy; it is primarily for playing records I don't have in digital format and secondarily for the fun and character it provides.
Sure there will be some variables thats the nature of the beast. Not sure what you are suggesting. Are you saying there should not be any testing ? I'd still say testing in some controlled fashion with the most due diligence possible is still far better than no test. The light from a flickering candle is still better than darkness.
 
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sergeauckland

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Frankly I have never heard of such a thing as verifying a test record. Do you buy a pound of anything and question the reference weight used to the calibrate the scale ?


Sure there will be some variables thats the nature of the beast. Not sure what you are suggesting. Are you saying there should not be any testing ? I'd still say testing in some controlled fashion with the most due diligence possible is still far better than no test. A flickering candle still is better than darkness.
Of course I question the calibration weights when I buy a pound of anything. Or rather, I delegate that responsibility to our local Trading Standards Officers. The use of uncalibrated or indeed false weights was rampant in Victorian times and stamped out.

Using uncalibrated test equipment is absolutely not permissible for public testing, which is why I don't post my measurements or publicly review equipment as it would be unfair to any manufacturer.

I have several test LPs and they are all suspect, the only one that appears to match expectations (make of that what you will) is The Ultimate Analogue Test LP. On one test LP, the pink noise bands seemed way out at HF and when I queried this with the producer, was told that the LP was for evaluating subjectively by listening and not measuring!

Amir has pretty much the Gold Standard for audio electronics and loudspeaker measurements and need the same if turntable measurements are to be similarly relied on. Otherwise you might as well just listen and post subjective impressions, they'll be as much use.

S
 

amirm

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Last year I bought a few test LPs with the intent of measuring cartridges at some point. The challenges are as mentioned. Still, I might make a measurement and post to see where we stand as far as usefulness.
 

anmpr1

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Well, by way of example, this is...interesting. And £2099.

A confusing write up. We read: Sumiko has been making cartridges for around 40 years and, although a US company, it has sourced its models from the same Japanese factory all that time.

Does this mean that Sumiko actually makes the cartridge, in their own Japanese factory? Or do they specify what they want and another entity builds it for them (along with cartridges for other companies)? I was always under the impression that Sumiko was simply an importer of both existing and special 'made to order' products they then slapped their name on. Is it too much to ask that these 'audio journalists' be a bit clearer in their writing?

That said, the review is better than a lot, since the writer didn't begin with an irrelevant story about his life, or about his wife, or something else completely unrelated to the matter at hand. I can even forgive the bizarre prose, turning the cartridge into a sentient object ("...the Starling seemed to know precisely what to do with this information...") and gushing subjective mixed metaphors ("The solid yet syncopated bass... motored along with gusto, forming an unshakable foundation...").

I have no doubt the item is a nice sounding cartridge. Years ago I owned a Sumiko Talisman cartridge, and thought it was one of the best sounding. I still own one of 'their' Grace tonearms, but it's in a closet somewhere. The Grace had nice build quality, but was a huge pain to set up and/or change cartridges. I took it out a while ago, and found that over the years the plastic on the headshell had become brittle, splitting.
 

pastorbarrett

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I do wonder looking at some of these MCs, and considering the likely demographic of purchasers, are they indeed 'tuned' to correspond...




presbycusis.gif
 

Robin L

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If a test record were used, wouldn't the test record need to be tested first? How would that be done without a "perfect" turntable setup?
If case you haven't already noticed, the test records used are eccentric. The yellow line is the wow and flutter of the test disc, the green line is the result once the wow & flutter is taken out of the result:

042020CAMch.PNG


In order to determine wow & flutter and speed accuracy, one has to calculate around the wow built into the test discs. No LP has the speed accuracy of digital sources. Full stop. As I have posted repeatedly, the real issue is not the playback gear, which can evolve, but the discs themselves, which cannot.
 
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Robin L

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A confusing write up. We read: Sumiko has been making cartridges for around 40 years and, although a US company, it has sourced its models from the same Japanese factory all that time.

Does this mean that Sumiko actually makes the cartridge, in their own Japanese factory? Or do they specify what they want and another entity builds it for them (along with cartridges for other companies)? I was always under the impression that Sumiko was simply an importer of both existing and special 'made to order' products they then slapped their name on. Is it too much to ask that these 'audio journalists' be a bit clearer in their writing?

That said, the review is better than a lot, since the writer didn't begin with an irrelevant story about his life, or about his wife, or something else completely unrelated to the matter at hand. I can even forgive the bizarre prose, turning the cartridge into a sentient object ("...the Starling seemed to know precisely what to do with this information...") and gushing subjective mixed metaphors ("The solid yet syncopated bass... motored along with gusto, forming an unshakable foundation...").

I have no doubt the item is a nice sounding cartridge. Years ago I owned a Sumiko Talisman cartridge, and thought it was one of the best sounding. I still own one of 'their' Grace tonearms, but it's in a closet somewhere. The Grace had nice build quality, but was a huge pain to set up and/or change cartridges. I took it out a while ago, and found that over the years the plastic on the headshell had become brittle, splitting.
The website for Sumiko displays what they import and distribute. The website's opening page says nothing about in-house manufacture. As far as I can tell, they import and distribute:

https://www.sumikoaudio.net
 
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levimax

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I do wonder looking at some of these MCs, and considering the likely demographic of purchasers, are they indeed 'tuned' to correspond...




View attachment 62651

I don't think the "hump" in HF response of most MM carts is because of tuning for demographics, rather it is a combination of tip resonance and the electrical filter effect of the interaction of inductance (which is much higher for MM carts than MC carts) of the cart and the capacitance of the cables. Here is an article that helped me understand this https://sound-au.com/articles/cartridge-loading.html

I have played around with several carts with a test record and a cheap USB Oscilloscope using the "test tone sweep" and "peak hold continuous" on the scope and have gotten fairly consistent and repeatable results measuring FR. Of course it is not "absolutely accurate" but rather "relatively accurate" between carts. The MM carts consistently have a FR "hump" and despite all the internet chatter about "tuning the resistance" what I found was capacitance has a big effect (lower better) and resistance fairly small and not worth try to change it.

Attached are two screen shots of two different carts an AT VM540L MM and a Denon 103R MC. From these it does appear the AT deserves it's "bright" reputation and the Denon deserves it's flat reputation.

As far as ASR testing TT's and carts goes that is a tough one with so many variables. I think if you picked a "standard" TT (Technics 1200?) and tested carts with moderate compliance to match the arm you could get some good relative performance data on carts which could be interesting but very high or very low compliance carts would not work right and you would need a different TT's which would change too many variables. I would like to see Amir try in any case.... I am sure it would generate many comments and complaints.
 

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