Why is impacting sales a problem? No one has a right to make a living selling whatever they want. They have the right to try. Amir's responsibility is to the truth: both the measurements AND his subjective opinion fall into that category.I agree with you almost.
Remember when President Bush said he didn't like broccoli ?
Well the sales of broccoli went up noticeably!
An influential outlet's posts can have a direct effect on business. So if I had posted that, or you, it would have been free speech, but when ASR does it, ASR becomes responsible.
At any rate, Mr. Alexander was wrong about the whole shebang, he handled it very badly, there was no need.
All I am trying to say, that individuals can enjoy free speech, but organizations can not hide behind it in theory.
ASR was blameless here, perhaps Amir could keep his opinions & interpretations, in a separate section from actual test data, in the future.
If anything .....
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Tekton M-Lore Speaker Measurement Update
- Thread starter amirm
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oh no no no, imagine the nightmare of re-testing this one,Thank you @amirm
As much we may understand Eric’s point of view that a minor cabinet leak can, and will change the port turning, and measuring on a different axis will affect the measurement, I feel that the owner’s reaction was unnecessary.
The approach to critical feedback can be managed in a different way.
After all, this is not the same magnitude of problem like a gross error- like a driver being wired out of phase, or a damaged / non-functioning driver.
I would have thought that a different approach would be more constructive eg. Reflecting on limitations of being able to control a user’s set-up process (eg. not installing feet) or listening on the tweeter axis instead of the woofer axis.
I would think this is a better approach and better for public relations for all involved.
After all, Eric does seem to have other interesting designs worthy of audition / measurement / review.
View attachment 364801
Ulfberht
Named after medieval-era Viking swords, the Ulfberht loudspeaker is the ultimate hammer/butterfly of sonic expression, striking out at the listener with percussive elements and a velocity that matches…tektondesign.com
...tweeter axis should be the one from the left, closest to the bottom right, second from the top below, but fourth from upside down, just say no!
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Clearly, Tekton did not think through their response. What’s the old saying - “there is no such thing as bad publicity“. No matter how good or bad the testing is of these speakers, it seems unlikely to dissuade the individual that would purchase them. When you think about it, a bad review may actually increase interest - in the targeted group.
To be honest the whole line of Tekton speakers look like home-made designed, garage built DIY speakers. One speaker has two 12" woofers and a bushel of tweeters, I don't know how it tests or sounds, but that it just does not meet the physics sniff test at all. The M-Lore is just not a very competitve speaker at that price point, that's all there is to it.
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The second sentence is accurate, there was no actual malice and freedom of press is very paramount.
On the other hand, the complexities of the case are worth reading since Bose won before losing at the Supreme Court. The thing that is missed in most modern discussions is this
[Bose] “points out that on June 15, 1970, Seligson and a man named Bertram Menden entered into a contract granting Menden a right of first refusal on Seligson's loudspeaker. The contract also called for Seligson and Robert S. Lanier to build a model of Seligson's loudspeaker in return for $2,000 " to be used Only for the purpose of building a model for demonstration purposes . . . " (Seligson Deposition at 357). The fact that Seligson entered into such a contract calls into question his testimony that he had no realistic hopes for the commercial use of his invention.”
Seligson is the reviewer. So he patented and is making his own speaker at the same time he is tasked with reviewing a “competitor”. He claimed it was just a patent that he wasn’t going to commercial and in the lawsuit it showed that he was paying a lot of money to create prototypes. $2K in 1970 is a lot since the average house in 1970 was $23k. 1979 $2k is also $16K in 2024 dollars when accounting for inflation.
Since Seligson is smart and an engineer, they took offense with two major statements. The first was the compliant that you needed “rather gigantic amount of power” (50W)
“The defendant's article reviewing the Bose 901 loudspeaker also states, " If you do consider buying the system, note well this fact: The Bose requires a rather gigantic amount of power. CU recommends you have an amplifier of 50 watts per channel for the deepest bass response." In his deposition Seligson explained how he arrived at the conclusion that the Bose 901 loudspeaker required a " gigantic" amount of amplifier power. (Deposition of Arnold L. Seligson (hereinafter Seligson Deposition) at 196-211). Dr. Bose states in his affidavit that he examined the deposition testimony of Seligson. Dr. Bose also states that if his understanding of Seligson's testimony is correct, Seligson was proceeding on an assumption or theory which was invalid, and that any competent audio engineer would have known that that theory was invalid. (Bose Affidavit at 6-8).”
That’s true. Erin has shown that the 901’s are 84 dB/W on the NFS, and so once you include the wall gain, it is pretty easy to play loudly.
The other part is Seligson wrote that “individual instruments heard through the Bose system seemed to grow to gigantic proportions and tended to wander about the room." The affidavit of the president of Bose Corporation, Amar G. Bose, which was submitted in support of the plaintiff's opposition to the motion for summary judgment, states that the phenomenon of widened and wandering instruments described in the defendant's article is a scientific impossibility.
Which is also true. The 901 might widen the phantom center but things don’t move around like a dynamic Atmos mix. Again, because Seligson was an actual engineer, he would know that it’s impossible. In later testimony, Seligson would try to say that he didn’t mean that wander with that standard definition/meaning in the English language.
The other complaints do include that only one driver was measured anechoically rather than all 9 simultaneously (potentially true because the lawsuit showed that the 901 tested had been tampered with) and that Seligson who set up the single blind listening test instructed the listeners to rate which speaker was most similar to the reference direct firing radiating speaker as opposed to rate their actual preference. But then the article makes it a preference discussion.
So as much as Bose is maligned for suing consumer reports for a “bad review” it was very different than the Tekton scenario. Most of us in 2024 would recognize that a review with such a clear conflict of interest should probably have someone else review it or declare the conflict of interest. Back then, there was no website or social media to publicly try to defend themselves (as Arcam did with the ASR review). Likewise, Bose wanted Consumer Reports to publish a correction to address some of these and they didn’t.
Nowadays, Consumer Reports has clear policies on conflicts of interest (which they didn’t back then)
Super interesting. I used to think “no highs, no lows, must be Bose” but became a huge fan of the company once trying the 901’s “just for fun” on a whim and being very impressed!
Ze Frog
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If he had evidence for such there is no reason why months later this information has not been provided, aside from a manafacturers raw data.
It's at the point now enough damage has been done that if he suddenly released this data now I genuinely think even his loyal clientele would be very skeptical. Especially as all this has highlighted is Jackel and Hyde type tendency towards what sounds good by ear and then going against such. His own marketing blurb has effectively painted him into a corner that at the beginning he could have manoeuvred past albeit awkwardly I imagine, but now he's doubled down repeatedly and at the point I don't even think he knows what his design philosophy is, it makes it extremely difficult to anyone else.
I hold no malice towards the guy, I was following original thread hoping he would see sense and reach out to Amir, Erin or Klippel. I don't think any reasonable person would have gloated at him awknoleging he's only human and maybe his approach was open to improvement. Could have really benefitted him and his company, but instead he's effectively attacked anyone saying what doesn't match his version of reality, a trait in his product videos as well where he likes to rubbish other manufacturers and designers. It's clear the guy has no sense of reason and yet nothing to back any of his statements. I'm actually surprised he himself hasn't been dragged through litigation himself. And if I was Eminence I'd be sending a cease and disist barring him from mentioning or using their products as using their raw measurements as his own, possibly as a 'its not my fault it's Eminence' kind of ploy to the uninitiated.
The reference line i use, is measured 2.83V sensitivity.
Measured over an interval of time, typically 1 min.
LEQ-Z SPL and rms average voltage taken over the same time interval..
Full band pink noise, so the measurement is an integration of the whole spectrum.
And then a little bit of math to bring it to 2.83V @ 1m.
Only thing technique requires other than a calibrated mic and REW, is a true rms voltmeter good enough to handle the audio freq spectrum.
Not that expensive nowadays.
Takes out the "eyeball judgement", over where to call the SPL reference line.
Ken Tajalli
Major Contributor
OK calm down.
ASR can be held responsible for its output, and ASR can not use "freedom of speech" as total defence.
If one can be sued, one has to be careful when speaking publicly.
Perhaps a lawyer can shine some light on this.
Ron Texas
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It's been discussed repeatedly that the rule in commercial disparagement cases is actual malice is required for the plaintiff to win. In other words the defendant must know that his speech was false. Anyone can sue, but that doesn't mean they will win.
OK.
May we please move on now ?
There is nothing interesting with this brand, obviously.
And even if there was something, their whole attitude is just disqualifying them.
Next.
May we please move on now ?
There is nothing interesting with this brand, obviously.
And even if there was something, their whole attitude is just disqualifying them.
Next.
sealman
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FYI My antivirus does not like that link due to an expired security certificate.
You are kind and optimistic
if all manufacturers where this good . I think some of them does not have such a well defined design goal that you actually could check against it .And those who have don’t really tell , what is a small room ? For example.
They need to imo, even the best are a deliberately vague about the use case they designed against ? They don’t want to postulate a negative and excluding potential buyers . Some pro brands can maybe admit that thier smallest speakers ( that basically fits in your hand ) are for true near field and not for use in your converted barn open plan living room
KSTR
Major Contributor
Pro manufacturers usually have a clear and explicitly stated design goal. Take any Neumann, their design goal for all speaker is "as flat as possible" on-axis under full anechoic conditions. It is assumed that the user knows what that means in practice and has means to adjust that to what is required to achieve a good target in the actual listening room (of the recording studio).
Home HiFi speaker are often voiced to sound "good" on average in what the manufacturer thinks what the typical listening situation will be for these.
For example, one and the same basic speaker model may have different bass alignments for different markets/environments, with regard to how houses are constructed -- anything from paper walls to concrete bunkers.
Home HiFi speaker are often voiced to sound "good" on average in what the manufacturer thinks what the typical listening situation will be for these.
For example, one and the same basic speaker model may have different bass alignments for different markets/environments, with regard to how houses are constructed -- anything from paper walls to concrete bunkers.
In my opinion the speaker in question is a real design disaster. In fact I would personally call it a piece of junk. Wasted money and a rip off of the consumer. But, that is just my opinion. People seem to like buying junk speakers all the time. Personally I think an old Aiwa boombox speaker system would do better. Of course it would also be much cheaper. Since this speaker is so bad I think it casts a negative shadow on the entire Tekton line. I will never buy any. Just another company scamming people in audio.
Thanks Amir! That makes 2 more measurements from you than the Tekton owner has posted for any of his speakers.
If you consider my 2 sims of Tekton’s Footgate, makes 2 more sims than he has posted too!
If you consider my 2 sims of Tekton’s Footgate, makes 2 more sims than he has posted too!
SabreVenga
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I'm just here for the drama. Superb little put-down from Amir.
I absolutely loath Americans who take advantage of our legal system's strong protections in order to get wrongly was they cannot get legitimately.
Now that I understand what kind of person is running things, I am absolutely never buying anything from Tekton. I will also relay this story on any review of Tekton speakers I see so potential buyers can understand as well. Some people would want to have such information, many won't care either way.
It should be up to the buyer and they deserve the information.
Tekton has been on my list of speakers to buy for a number of reasons: made in USA, cheap, and efficient for my 1/2 watt tube amplifer (1 watt with alternate tubes). But with several sets of good speakers already in my home, I probably wasn't buying any time soon, tbh. Though I love the gold tweeter on the Lore tower, I think it looks fantastic. I had been planning to buy a pair and if the efficiency wasn't enough, replace the woofer.
Now that I understand what kind of person is running things, I am absolutely never buying anything from Tekton. I will also relay this story on any review of Tekton speakers I see so potential buyers can understand as well. Some people would want to have such information, many won't care either way.
It should be up to the buyer and they deserve the information.
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Ken Tajalli
Major Contributor
check your computer's date and clock.
Okapi
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This comment is underappreciated.
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