Technics SL 1210GR2 Turntable

[morillon]

Yes, this turntable has a pretty decent wow parameter.
By the way, this app seems to be a bit better for such measurements.

Turntable Speed - Apps on Google Play

Vinyl record player Speed(RPM) and Wow measurement

play.google.com

(
the designer has in a fairly recent update significantly increased the measurement frequency..that has changed the situation for me... just uninstall and reinstall the app
)
each current method has its limits in detail ;-)
we are here in the rather "theoretical" observation...
remains interesting... ,
take ranges of 3k 3k150 on "well-born" discs..
and when listening observe your own tolerance thresholds etc then the piano etc... the end result....

;-)

 

[Quando]

Old Denon DP-67

 

[DSJR]

Back in the day, it was routine that the top end of direct driven turntables had basic performance as good or better than the test records available.

What most of these decks WEREN'T so good at, was vibration isolation and feedback, especially with the lids on and sometimes, whether shut or not! This could have a subjective degradation in the mid to low bass compared to more isolated suspended sub-chassis types. I know this is way off topic, but please do remember that turntables such as the Technics with the pickups used, are vibration reading machines and bad siting will make even these not 'sound as good' as they could otherwise. A wobbly strobe casting could be the last of the issues...

What a wonderful resource the worldradiohistory site is for the likes of me, as, instead of scanning old mags, risking them falling apart, I can not refer to a particular page. Here's a 1980 review of the modern Technics decks' ancestors, the SL1700 II.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/UK/Hi-Fi-Choice/1975-1982/Hi-Fi%20Choice%20Iss.%20018.Turntables%20&%20Tonearms%203%201980.pdf

- magazine page 202 and 203. A summary of the motor units is on page 207.

 

[Quando]

Back in the day, it was routine that the top end of direct driven turntables had basic performance as good or better than the test records available.

What most of these decks WEREN'T so good at, was vibration isolation and feedback, especially with the lids on and sometimes, whether shut or not! This could have a subjective degradation in the mid to low bass compared to more isolated suspended sub-chassis types. I know this is way off topic, but please do remember that turntables such as the Technics with the pickups used, are vibration reading machines and bad siting will make even these not 'sound as good' as they could otherwise. A wobbly strobe casting could be the last of the issues...

What a wonderful resource the worldradiohistory site is for the likes of me, as, instead of scanning old mags, risking them falling apart, I can not refer to a particular page. Here's a 1980 review of the modern Technics decks' ancestors, the SL1700 II.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/UK/Hi-Fi-Choice/1975-1982/Hi-Fi%20Choice%20Iss.%20018.Turntables%20&%20Tonearms%203%201980.pdf

- magazine page 202 and 203. A summary of the motor units is on page 207.

This site with archived digital audio magazines is absolutely fantastic
This is a very good source of information about the golden age of vinyl.

Thanks for finding this list of turntables and tonearms.

How did they measure the tonearm's own resonance?

 

[Quando]

"well-born" discs.. ;-)

I once ordered a test record from Ortofon, the first, second, third, etc. I sent back because they were not well-born. I left the 6th copy because I no longer had the strength to send it back.
There are no straight vinyl records, only more or less crooked ones.

For vinyl lovers:
There are no crooked vinyl records, there are only more or less straight ones

 

[DSJR]

This site with archived digital audio magazines is absolutely fantastic
This is a very good source of information about the golden age of vinyl.

Thanks for finding this list of turntables and tonearms.

How did they measure the tonearm's own resonance?

It'll be in the tech sections at the beginning of the book.

 

[Quando]

It'll be in the tech sections at the beginning of the book.

"In the last issue an accelerometer (B&K 8307) was placed vertically on the arm beam, approximately one third ofthe latter's length away from the pivots. The unequalised acceleration output was preamplified and fed to a chart recorder (B&K 2305), the left channel modulation band of B&K QR2009 being used to vibrate the test cartridge (Dynavector 20A) from 20Hz to 20kHz"

It is essential to read the introduction to this review, which explains in detail what problems we have to deal with in the case of turntables and vinyl records, and why, despite such great problems related to playing vinyl records, everything worked better than you might expect.

Quote: (from 1980) "Currently I would estimate that the replay fidelity in relation to the original signals from the recording microphones is around 95% recovery for digital, 85% for high speed Dolby 'A' mastertape, and 65% for the best vinyl discs, the latter figure falling to 45% for typical records. I anticipate that samples of domestic digital disc replay machines will be available by the time of the next edition of Turntables and Tonearms, in other words, during 1981. Iftheir expected promise is fulfilled, digital players will inevitably dictate a reassessment of our values, for example, a relative 'devaluation' of the more costly LP disc replay systems."

 

[DSJR]

And yet, a pictorial assessment of the current Chester-group show, has acres of bling on show with many turntables in use...

 

[Quando]

And yet, a pictorial assessment of the current Chester-group show, has acres of bling on show with many turntables in use...

People have been fooled into thinking that a modern vinyl record, a modern gramophone, gives better sound quality and some incredible musical experience, compared to a CD, digital sound.

This is just marketing for quite a large business, producers of gramophones, from $100 to several thousand dollars, and producers of vinyl records, usually 3-5 times more expensive than the CD edition.

Yes, a gramophone is a cool mechanical toy, and it can also play music.

 

[JP]

OK – the platter discussion inspired me to do a quick&dirty video with my 1978 or so Sony PS-X60:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Even more fun - use a laser. First is an SP-10MKII platter, and the second is a very flat record on the same 'table superimposed (note these are two separate data sets on one graph that are not indexed).

 

[undeakyetonde]

Quote: (from 1980) "Currently I would estimate that the replay fidelity in relation to the original signals from the recording microphones is around 95% recovery for digital, 85% for high speed Dolby 'A' mastertape, and 65% for the best vinyl discs, the latter figure falling to 45% for typical records.

Are these percentages supposed to mean something?

 

[mike70]

gives better sound quality and some incredible musical experience, compared to a CD, digital sound.

Yes, that's what happens with many records.
Above the format is the recording / mastering ... you can record mp3 in 128kbps in a CD ... and because is a "perfect media" it will sound good?

Theory is equals to practice only in theory.

 

[undeakyetonde]

Yes, that's what happens with many records.
Above the format is the recording / mastering ... you can record mp3 in 128kbps in a CD ... and because is a "perfect media" it will sound good?

Theory is equals to practice only in theory.

In my experience if CD is pressed from mp3 128kbps then the record is pressed from the same mp3

 

[mike70]

In my experience if CD is pressed from mp3 128kbps then the record is pressed from the same mp3

No, records can have the same digital source mix in high resolution, but then you need to master for vinyl and for red book / streaming ... and many, many CDs are compressed and destroyed to sound good in cell phones with plastic earbuds.

So, many releases really sound better in vinyl. The limitations in the format itself doesn't allows the "damage" they can do in CDs, with very high compression and much more limited DR.

A Ferrari with bad fuel ...

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, that's what happens with many records.
Above the format is the recording / mastering ... you can record mp3 in 128kbps in a CD ... and because is a "perfect media" it will sound good?

Theory is equals to practice only in theory.

Why would you record an mp3 at 128kbps to begin with? You still strapped for storage space?

 

[Timmy]

each current method has its limits in detail ;-)

Yeah ... I believe I tried two or three of those apps a while ago, seeing quite deviating measuring results. Didn’t invest more time into that matter then.

 

[morillon]

Yeah ... I believe I tried two or three of those apps a while ago, seeing quite deviating measuring results. Didn’t invest more time into that matter then.

without quibbling...
a simple thing to do... for example make a fine adjustment on strobo 300hz then ( with ac motor no regulation, useful)..if it really doesn't correspond...enter the compensation in the app (when it offers it)...

I'm lucky, on my current sa**mg and the latest version of this app it's very good without effort...

 

[Timmy]

Will give it a try later.

 

[Quando]

without quibbling...
a simple thing to do... make a fine adjustment on strobo 300hz then ( with ac motor no regulation, useful)..if it really doesn't correspond...enter the compensation in the app (when it offers it)...

I'm lucky, on my current sa**mg and the latest version of this app it's very good without effort...

Yes, you must first calibrate the application

It is worth noting that the drive in the turntable is not binary, so the measurement result may differ each time. It would be downright abnormal if we obtained a 100% identical result each time. Each element, and there are many of them, of the drive is also made within a specific tolerance, from-to, plus wear of these elements. Plus a measurement error resulting from a different positioning of the smartphone, a measurement error of the smartphone itself.
I would start to worry when the discrepancy between the results is very large.....

 

[morillon]

Will give it a try later.

things can get a bit complicated..for example, on my "downgrade" LP ( ;-)
just an AC motor without a frequency regulator) I have to precisely follow the frequency of my current and choose a time "50.00 Hz" to take the measurement