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Technics SB-C700 Review (Coaxial Bookshelf)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 7 2.8%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 28 11.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 147 59.3%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 66 26.6%

  • Total voters
    248

fineMen

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Technics claims a frequency range of 20Hz up to 100kHz. So I feel free to discuss the product, they asked for it. The price is too high, as the speaker(s) sport pretty much standard technology. Most of the financial effort goes into the enclosure, which appears pretentious to my eye. The C700 obviously copies the LS50's specifications, objectively doing better here, doing worse there. Especially the tweeter seems to be not up to todays possibilities. The woofer shows a spike in distortion exactly where it hurts (1,5kHz).

With both LS50 and C700 I expect, while not being assessed here, tons of intermodulation. Even at modest to humble levels. I dismissed the LS50 because of this. A subwoofer wouldn't help, or it would be more a bass, running up to 250Hz or so.

Coaxials are still hard to get right.
 

Jmudrick

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That's really too bad about the hi freq. especially when the detail,resolution and imaging are great, usually stuff that's hard to come by. Room setup seems to be critical and taming them by following the recommendation in the manual have helped according to owner's suggestions in previous posts. I can't see not being able to reduce the ear bleeding with toe in/out positioning.
Possibly room or position or who knows but my ears are not bleeding at all.
 

Eetu

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Technics claims a frequency range of 20Hz up to 100kHz.
20Hz?
IMG_20220207_125247.jpg
 

Tangband

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The main “problem” of these speakers is the dip of energy off-axis 1-2 kHz vs off-axis 2-5 kHz. It will be worse in a stereo set-up. Partly it can be compensated for by Amirs EQ.
Maybe . But you dont hear any ”speaker box sound ” from Genelecs or GRIMM audio, and they are ruler flat. Im sure the major problem with this speaker here, is a coaxial driver doing full range job. The sound with music will give listening tiredness. We have measurements to back this up.

Thomas - implementing stereosystem compensation when listening with only one loudspeaker is not gonna sound better than ruler flat. It gonna sound worse. I believe Amirm did his listening with the Technics with only one loudspeaker .
 
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beagleman

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It seems like unless it is Harman your don’t like the sound, bias a bit!
Not sure that is really a "Fair" comment to make.

I think he found a brand and speaker he simply thinks is quite neutral AND listenable at the same time. You or I or others may not agree with HIS subjective assessments or we may. I still love the relation between the measurements AND hearing his view of them.

We are all different, and honestly not even sure we will all favor neutral sound, or if we have biases that lean a bit this way or that way.
 

Thomas_A

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Maybe . But you dont hear any ”speaker box sound ” from Genelecs or GRIMM audio, and they are ruler flat. Im sure the major problem with this speaker here, is a coaxial driver doing full range job. The sound with music will give listening tiredness. We have measurements to back this up.

Thomas - implementing stereosystem compensation when listening with only one loudspeaker is not gonna sound better than ruler flat. It gonna sound worse. I believe Amirm did his listening with the Technics with only one loudspeaker .
If a ruler flat (or say +/-0.5 dB) is the best with one speaker, the same speakers will sound tonally different in stereo. There you have the dilemma.

In the case of the Technics vs Revel, a large difference is dispersion 1-10 kHz; Amir could reasonably adjust by bumping the 2 kHz to get better balance. Better off is to NOT having a significant dip off-axis around 1-2 kHz vs 2-5 kHz. (I did these DIY loudspeaker experiments some 25 years ago as well, and I prefer rather to bump the on-axis 1-2 kHz and/or reduce 2-5 kHz if there is a directivity mismatch in these frequencies off-axis.)
 

fineMen

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Yes, in my language they claim this range to be covered, and in all detail, of course. The 'us' page doesn't have the SB-C700 no more. But please don't accuse me if You can still find it.

Anyway, 80kHz or 100kHz? Marketing for a product that doesn't actually fit the need of a real music lover. I'm o/k with speakers that are limited to, say, 75dB @ 1m, plus say 10dB of dynamics, but it should be stated in the specs. The LS50 I had didn't deliver, and I expect the C700 to fail in the same way. Sound becomes artificial, too much of the typical nasty coloration from overload. I see that many people are acustomed to it, and are already expecting this additional excitement. Feeling the machinery doing some work, right? Otherwise the speaker is said to be 'boring'. Which tint of coloration is preferred may again be a matter of taste. That said, the LS50 was peppery knife edge sharp, if that does make sense?
 

PeteL

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Yes, in my language they claim this range to be covered, and in all detail, of course. The 'us' page doesn't have the SB-C700 no more. But please don't accuse me if You can still find it.

Anyway, 80kHz or 100kHz? Marketing for a product that doesn't actually fit the need of a real music lover. I'm o/k with speakers that are limited to, say, 75dB @ 1m, plus say 10dB of dynamics, but it should be stated in the specs. The LS50 I had didn't deliver, and I expect the C700 to fail in the same way. Sound becomes artificial, too much of the typical nasty coloration from overload. I see that many people are acustomed to it, and are already expecting this additional excitement. Feeling the machinery doing some work, right? Otherwise the speaker is said to be 'boring'. Which tint of coloration is preferred may again be a matter of taste. That said, the LS50 was peppery knife edge sharp, if that does make sense?
Well you shouldn't change your specs because it doesn't "fit the need of a music lover" Specs should be what's measured. The specs I see looks true. Sure tough, all the International translations should have the same rigour, it is Indeed wrong if Panasonic change their specs from countries to to countries tough. That sounds like shooting yourself in the foot since there are people speaking english in every countries. For what it's worth, the UK site still have it for english specs, Which market is the one with the false advertising?
 
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Spocko

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There is a broad dip though which is also reflected in predicted in-room response:


View attachment 184262

...
As is, even though objective performance is very good, I personally can't recommend the Technics SB-C700. Add a bit of EQ to it though and it becomes a very capable speaker that I can recommend. [emphasis added]
@amirm I definitely missed class when this bit of insight concerning "spatial qualities" between 1K and 3K was discussed: so rather than a dip (or just flat), what if there was a broad bump here - would it "increase" spatial qualities?
 
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amirm

amirm

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@amirm I definitely missed class when this bit of insight concerning "spatial qualities" between 1K and 3K was discussed: so rather than a dip (or just flat), what if there was a broad bump here - would it "increase" spatial qualities?
It can but can also sound bright then.
 

Geert

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Im sure the major problem with this speaker here, is a coaxial driver doing full range job.
As you can't stop repeating this I'll repeat my question:
If you believe directivity modulation is more important than 3dB differences in frequency response, than tell me why Amirm concluded the speaker sound very nice after EQ-ing.
 

Walter

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It seems like unless it is Harman your don’t like the sound, bias a bit!
You should read the review of the Wharfedale Diamond 12.1. He put it equal or very close to the M16 at a substantially lower price.
 
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Geert

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The sound with music will give listening tiredness. We have measurements to back this up.
Can you share the measurements that proof listening tiredness?
 

ROOSKIE

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... "Modulating what you prefer based on the measurments you see is the very definition of Bias."
Yes and this is the crux and me talking much about it doesn't really belong in this thread suffice it for me to say unless being treated to appropriate blind testing we are really only able to assess the measurements via subjective biases about them.
I still go ahead and do my best and have a blast doing it, as do you all, yet we are all modulating and imagining to some degree. (likely a very meaningful degree)
 

Maiky76

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This is a review and detailed measurements of the Technics SB-C700 coaxial 2-way bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $1,699.
View attachment 184257
The enclosure is built quite solid and the paint job is first class. Not that it matters but I was surprised to see no marking on the back as to model and manufacturing location:
View attachment 184258

Measurements that you are about to see were performed using the Klippel Near-field Scanner (NFS). This is a robotic measurement system that analyzes the speaker all around and is able (using advanced mathematics and dual scan) to subtract room reflections (so where I measure it doesn't matter). It also measures the speaker at close distance ("near-field") which sharply reduces the impact of room noise. Both of these factors enable testing in ordinary rooms yet results that can be more accurate than an anechoic chamber. In a nutshell, the measurements show the actual sound coming out of the speaker independent of the room.

Measurements are compliant with latest speaker research into what can predict the speaker preference and is standardized in CEA/CTA-2034 ANSI specifications. Likewise listening tests are performed per research that shows mono listening is much more revealing of differences between speakers than stereo or multichannel.


Reference axis was the center of the tweeter (aligned by eye). Measurement room was at 10 degrees C which may lower bass output a bit. Accuracy is better than 1% in most of the frequency spectrum but degraded to 2% above 5 KHz indicating complex interference from multiple sources .

Technics SB-C700 Measurements
Acoustic measurements can be grouped in a way that can be perceptually analyzed to determine how good a speaker is and how it can be used in a room. This so called spinorama shows us just about everything we need to know about the speaker with respect to tonality and some flaws:

View attachment 184259

On axis is surprisingly good. Yes, there are a few resonances but overall, it is quite flat. The closes competitor to SB-C700 is the KEF LS50. Here is its spin:

index.php


Quite on even and worse than Technics.

Port is tuned to lower frequency and hence creates a shelf there:
View attachment 184260

Cabinet resonance around 1.4 kHz is visible but at much lower level than we see in budget ported speakers. Still, as noted you can see it cause a dB or so peaking in on-axis response.

Early window reflections have high similarity to on-axis response due to excellent directivity:

View attachment 184261
There is a broad dip though which is also reflected in predicted in-room response:


View attachment 184262

Beam width is wide and generally smooth:
View attachment 184264

Same story with directivity:
View attachment 184265

Due to coaxial driver, vertical response is almost the same:

View attachment 184266

Distortion is kept in check at 86 dBSPL but gets out of control at 96 dBSPL:
View attachment 184267

View attachment 184268

Impedance is on the low side but then again, this is a similar story to many small speakers:

View attachment 184270

For fans of timing analysis, here are those measurements:
View attachment 184271

View attachment 184273

View attachment 184274

Technics SB-C700 Listening Tests
First impression was that the tonality was correct. Yet track after track did not impress. Some sounded a bit tubby, some a bit bright. Both of these were indicated in the measurements but correcting them didn't improvement things. So switched out the speaker with Revel M105. Wow, oh wow! The sound was so much more detailed, open and delightful than what I was getting out of Technics. So I pulled out the predicted in-room response of the M105 and saw this perfection:

index.php


In comparison, the SB-C700 has that broad dip. I put in a quick and dirty boost there and improvement was substantial:

View attachment 184275

I have noticed the same in countless headphone measurements. Make this region right and the sound opens up with better detail and spatial qualities. Now, I could sit back and enjoy the sound of the Technics!

Conclusions
The SB-C700 made quite a buzz on its release circa 2015. Panasonics (parent of Technics) had existed TV business but was getting seriously back into audio and this was their entry. I remember hearing it though at an audio show and walked away unimpressed. Part of it was the poor demo but now that I have listened to it, I can see that it is so close to being an excellent speaker. Objectively it is far better than KEF LS50 which has run away with this market that could have been Panasonic's. Sadly I think the SB-C700 is being discontinued, likely due to zero marketing.

As is, even though objective performance is very good, I personally can't recommend the Technics SB-C700. Add a bit of EQ to it though and it becomes a very capable speaker that I can recommend.

-----------
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Hi,

Here is my take on the EQ.
Please report your finding positive or negative!

The following EQs are “anechoic” EQs to get the speaker right before room integration. If you able to implement these EQs you must add EQ at LF for room integration, that is usually not optional… see hints there: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...helf-speaker-review.11144/page-26#post-800725

The raw data with corrected ER and PIR:

Score no EQ: 4.9
With Sub: 7.0
Technics SBC700 No EQ Spinorama.png


Spinorama with no EQ:
  • Nice directivity but a bit too hot at HF because this coax does not seem to have a "waveguide effect".
  • A bit rough
  • Looks better than the LS50 (original ones)
  • LF shy?
Directivity:

Better stay at tweeter height
Horizontally, better toe-in the speakers by ~10deg and have the axis crossing in front of the listening location, might help dosing the upper range.
Technics SBC700 LW Better data.png


Technics SBC700 2D surface Directivity Contour Only Data.png



EQ design:

I have generated two EQs. The APO config files are attached.
  • The first one, labelled, LW is targeted at making the LW flat
  • The second, labelled Score, starts with the first one and adds the score as an optimization variable.
  • The EQs are designed in the context of regular stereo use i.e. domestic environment, no warranty is provided for a near field use in a studio environment although the LW might be better suited for this purpose.
Score EQ LW: 5.5
with sub: 7.5

Score EQ Score: 5.9
with sub: 7.9

Code:
Technics SBC700 APO EQ LW 96000Hz
February082022-105007

Preamp: -2.9 dB

Filter 1: ON HPQ Fc 46.64,    0.00,    1.30
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 183.77,    -1.19,    1.37
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 1152.24,    -0.85,    1.35
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 2099.66,    1.23,    2.73
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 8438.57,    -1.36,    1.05

Technics SBC700 APO EQ Score 96000Hz
February082022-104428

Preamp: -2.9 dB

Filter 1: ON HPQ Fc 46.47,    0.00,    1.29
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 176.53,    -1.22,    1.42
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 1267.12,    -0.64,    0.96
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 2175.22,    0.85,    3.95
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 7671.43,    -2.03,    0.71

Technics SBC700 E Design.png


Spinorama EQ LW
Technics SBC700 LW EQ Spinorama.png


Spinorama EQ Score
Technics SBC700 Score EQ Spinorama.png


Zoom PIR-LW-ON
Technics SBC700 Zoom.png


Regression - Tonal
Technics SBC700 Regression - Tonal.png


Radar no EQ vs EQ score
Nice improvements
Technics SBC700 Radar.png

The rest of the plots is attached.
 

Attachments

  • Technics SBC700 Horizontal 3D Directivity data.png
    Technics SBC700 Horizontal 3D Directivity data.png
    414.1 KB · Views: 54
  • Technics SBC700 Normalized Directivity data.png
    Technics SBC700 Normalized Directivity data.png
    307.3 KB · Views: 56
  • Technics SBC700 Raw Directivity data.png
    Technics SBC700 Raw Directivity data.png
    491.9 KB · Views: 49
  • Technics SBC700 Reflexion data.png
    Technics SBC700 Reflexion data.png
    134.8 KB · Views: 56
  • Technics SBC700 LW data.png
    Technics SBC700 LW data.png
    140.1 KB · Views: 57
  • Technics SBC700 2D surface Directivity Contour Data.png
    Technics SBC700 2D surface Directivity Contour Data.png
    304.9 KB · Views: 61
  • Technics SBC700 3D surface Vertical Directivity Data.png
    Technics SBC700 3D surface Vertical Directivity Data.png
    446.1 KB · Views: 62
  • Technics SBC700 3D surface Horizontal Directivity Data.png
    Technics SBC700 3D surface Horizontal Directivity Data.png
    435.1 KB · Views: 60
  • Technics SBC700 Vertical 3D Directivity data.png
    Technics SBC700 Vertical 3D Directivity data.png
    421.1 KB · Views: 50
  • Technics SBC700 APO EQ LW 96000Hz.txt
    300 bytes · Views: 49
  • Technics SBC700 APO EQ Score 96000Hz.txt
    303 bytes · Views: 43

Xyrium

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I'll admit, I never got into Technics as a brand, though I respect Panasonic for the reliability they usually bring to the table. However, I like this style of speaker, and it would have been neat to see what Technics could have done with a little DSP and Hypex built in.
 

pierre

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Hello,
I get very similar results as @Maiky76.

If I optimise for PIR I get better results but the LW degrades a bit too much. I kept the LW optimisation. Optimisation starts at 200Hz, if you go lower, you of course get a flatter ON with a better score but it cost you some SPL and this speaker is relatively limited.
Code:
         SPK auEQ
-----------------
NBD  ON 0.46 0.43
NBD  LW 0.33 0.32
NBD PIR 0.30 0.28
SM  PIR 0.64 0.71
SM   SP 0.80 0.84
LFX       44   44
LFQ     0.60 0.60
-----------------
Score    5.0  5.4
w/sub    7.1  7.4
-----------------

Code:
EQ for Technics SB-C700 computed from ASR data
Preference Score 5.0 with EQ 5.4
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.14
Dated: 2022-02-08-05:24:51

Preamp: -1.7 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc  2141 Hz Gain +1.71 dB Q 2.66
Filter  2: ON PK Fc  1375 Hz Gain -1.16 dB Q 3.95
Filter  3: ON PK Fc  1555 Hz Gain +1.75 dB Q 3.90
Filter  4: ON PK Fc  1759 Hz Gain -1.24 dB Q 3.94
Filter  5: ON PK Fc  8534 Hz Gain -0.99 dB Q 2.28

gives you:
filters_eq.png
 
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amirm

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However, I like this style of speaker, and it would have been neat to see what Technics could have done with a little DSP and Hypex built in.
Panasonic is one of those companies that resists adoption of western technology like Hypex unless they have no choice. Way too much pride in what their own engineers can do than to go and license something like that.
 

Tangband

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Can you share the measurements that proof listening tiredness?
 

Geert

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These measurements have nothing to do with listening fatigue.
 
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