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Technically, what exactly is TUBEY sound?

Robin L

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If you want to experience the sound, at good quality, I'd suggest streaming (if they are available I don't know) or purchasing some of the CD reissues of the Mercury Living Prescence recordings done on 35 mm film. Those used tube U47 microphones, tubed gear for everything, and went to the optical tracks of 35 mm film instead of reel to reel tape. The 35 mm film for recording sound was quite a step up in transparency vs RTR. And the ways it wasn't of great fidelity are not different than tubed gear. I don't know if the 35 mm based Everest recordings are available anywhere, but that is another source. Though I felt the Everests for reasons unknown to me were a little light weight below 100 hz.
Unless I have been mis-informed, the 35mm film used by Mercury was simply magnetic tape in the format of 35mm film [oxide deposited on film]. So Mercury wasn't using the "optical" track. Plenty of 'vintage' distortion on these recordings.

I've owned my fair share of tube gear, vintage for the most part. The outlier was the hybrid J-FET/Triode amp for my Stax Earspeakers. That amp stage had no transformer coupling. My guess is that "tube" sound has more to do with transformers, esp vintage transformers, like those on the Marantz 8b/Fisher 800/500/Dynaco Stereo 70 et al. If you like this sort of thing, you like this sort of thing. I don't. The hybrid Stax amp sounded like SS but a touch smoother. As far as I'm concerned, it could of used a touch more resolution, though being as that all was happening 20-30 years ago my sources might have been more at fault.

Whatever else might be said of the Everest 35mm recordings, the A & R work was usually pretty bad. Have no idea why anyone would want to hear Josef Krips' enervated Beethoven, sound quality is good enough to hear the orchestral clams and self noise of the gear used. Not exactly what I would call worth the effort.
 

MRC01

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I had an Everest 35mm recording of Berlioz Symphony Fantastique. It was nothing special sonically. Not bad, but some of the RCA Victors were far superior. It left me with the impression that the whole 35mm thing was more of a gimmick than a real technical improvement.
 

Robin L

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I had an Everest 35mm recording of Berlioz Symphony Fantastique. It was nothing special sonically. Not bad, but some of the RCA Victors were far superior. It left me with the impression that the whole 35mm thing was more of a gimmick than a real technical improvement.
The Mercurys are in the same league as the "Living Stereo" series, usually brighter in tonal balance. Both series have plenty of soft and sometimes not-so soft clipping. The 35mm Mercurys don't seem much different than the sessions recorded to [1/2 inch?] tape. I've owned one of the Everest recordings transferred to SACD, ok but not what I would call state of the art.
 

watchnerd

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I would like to know what is the scientific reason behind the "attractiveness" of tubey sound.

My impression is as below:

FREQUENCY RESPONSE
1. Tubes boosts mid-low frequencies which makes vocal more forward-sounding;
2. Rolls off high frequency and reduces low bass, which makes low-mid-range even more forward-sounding;
3. The reduced high frequency usually compensates for bad room-acounstic, especially rooms with too much reflection, which is where 90% of "audiophiles" listen to their system;
4. The reduced low bass reduces the significance of room mode.

DISTORTION
1. Some tube amps introduce more even harmonic Distortion compared to solid states;
2. This makes bass and mid-low frequencies sound "thicker" and more immersive;
3. More even harmonics adds that "metallic" colour to instruments and female voice which some people prefer.

Decay
1. Some tube amps got longer decay, which compensates for weak bass some times;
2. Which also makes studio-recorded vocal sound less "dry" sometimes.

CLIPPING
1. Old tube amps tend to have higher distortion than modern tube amps;
2. Back in the time it was rare to see amps with more than 20Wpc of output therefore most of amps would go into clipping when playing music;
3. Tubes sounds much more tolerable when going into clipping compared to early solid states;
4. People then believed tubes sound better;
5. Also the same reason that why some people claim "high powered/expensive SS sound more like tube". Is it simply due to the fact that they clip less frequently?

I concluded the above on myself after years of observation and discussion with my friends, some of them got technical background but most of them don't.

Please let me know what I've concluded wrong or what else would you like to add on! :)

Wikipedia article on the topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound
 

kevinh

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Bell Labs did some studies when transistors were first being used in audio amps. The tube amps they tested tended to have 2nd and 3rd harmonics as their primary distortion components. Triodes tended more to the 2nd harmonic.
2nd harmonic is ‘easier’ for the brain to process, third harmonic lends more ‘brightness’ to the sound.
Most older tube amps had lower damping factors than SS amps, this is most noticeable in the bass region.
Tube amps also clip differently than SS amps. The waveform of a tube clipping is rounded off compared to a SS amp where the clipping is more like chopping the top off the waveform, this indicates more high order harmonics, which can lend a ‘harsh’ sound.
Ideally one should have enough headroom to avoid clipping the waveform.
 

raif71

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May I ask what feature film is enticing you to return to the theater?

I go about 2 or 3 times a year. One a few years back was a 3D showing of Prometheus. Not a bad movie in my opinion. I wanted to see it, was working lots of hours, but had a Tuesday evening clear to watch it. No one else was there for the late Tuesday showing. So this large up to date theater had a showing just for me. I'm sure they weren't happy as the theater doesn't have to pay the fee for showing if no tickets are sold. And mine was the only one that late evening. The last week they were showing it. I would have preferred other people there. On the other hand, shoot, better than watching it at home if no one else is there to bother you.

I do now have a good sized projector setup and my visits to the theater are lower than in year's past. I wished people making these movies would catch on and offer quality streaming in the opening weeks. I don't want to go to the theater. I've a big screen, excellent surround sound, and the convenience of watching at home with my friends. I'll pay a few bucks for that and the move companies are missing out on my revenue.

Hmm, if you're the only one or if the crowd is so small, wouldn't it be cheaper if the theater refund the money back plus give discount for future purchases instead of still putting up a show?
 

watchnerd

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Hmm, if you're the only one or if the crowd is so small, wouldn't it be cheaper if the theater refund the money back plus give discount for future purchases instead of still putting up a show?

In the US, the license for the film to the theater is a fixed cost for a certain period of time (e.g. 4 weeks).

The theater might as well show it and hope you buy lots of high margin soda and pop corn.
 

MediumRare

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With tubes it matters how you use them. (i.e. topology and parts around it) that can, or do not, 'colour' the sound in a way that is either appreciated by some or simply works admirably and cannot be distinguished in a blind test.
Thanks, that’s the best explanation of tubes I can recall seeing, ever.
 

scott wurcer

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In the US, the license for the film to the theater is a fixed cost for a certain period of time (e.g. 4 weeks).

The theater might as well show it and hope you buy lots of high margin soda and pop corn.

When I booked films it was a fixed fee or half the gross whichever is larger. Stacking the deck a little.
 

Sal1950

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May I ask what feature film is enticing you to return to the theater?
I'm thinking of going to see Joker this week.
I heard rumors it was good?
 

Robin L

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Wes

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2nd harmonic is ‘easier’ for the brain to process ...


Do you have a citation for this?

I've never seen anything published re the common stmt. that even order HD is more euphonic either.
 

kevinh

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I read about listening test done by Bell Laboratories in the 60's, when transistors first became available.
Their idea was that since a musical instruments produce a fundamental note and them the harmonics of that note,
think of a string instrument. the brain process a 2nd harmonic as a richer sound, and can ignore a higher level of that
sort of distortion. Whereas a higher order odd harmonic is dissonant for the brain to resolve.

These test were conducted with amps both transistor amps with far more distortion than a modern amp,
also they didn't know about slewing distortion until Otala. some years later.

I couldn't find the original document on google, but this AES paper from 1972 by a recording engineer address some of the
issues of the day and has measurements that are similar to the Bell Lab results as I recall.

https://butleraudio.com/tubesvstrans1.html
 

Blumlein 88

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Why don't you guys just download Pkane's Distort software and try it with 2nd, or 3rd or some of both. See how it sounds to you.
 

pkane

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Blumlein 88

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I did get it so it runs both Distort and Deltawave without re-installing each time, but I still have to find the process and kill it to shut down the program. Not so bad I won't use it, just a bother.

Just for reference this is on Manjaro linux which is Arch based. Wine and Winetricks used.
 
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