Tariffs on electrical goods

[Rod]

I have paid more, and still have some of it. I will never give up my Seaton Submersive sub, and I have Klipsch La'scalas from the 1970's. Even though not from the USA, I paid a premium for the RME Dac over china equivalents. But I will have this gear for a very long time. Like someone will end up with it and probably sale it when I am gone.

 

[jhaider]

Apogee Digital (they make studio DACs and stuff like that, not ribbon speakers) blasted the following appeal to their mailing list:

https://mailchi.mp/apogeedigital/we-need-your-help?e=1cfdffcd29

 

[esm]

how much more are you willing to pay for Made in USA audio products?

I know I may take a bit of flack for this, but: "0%". I don't care about country of origin, because the whole premise feels flawed to me: what constitutes "made in"? Does it mean final assembly? Individual component construction? Raw material sourcing? Original design? Retail location? And why should I care one way or the other? Is this like baseball, where I'm always supposed to root for the home team? (And that's as far as I'll go down that path, since I'm pretty sure discussions of nationalism are seriously off-topic for ASR.)

Even the question itself assumes the reader is a US citizen or cares about US interests, and I'm pretty sure we have a few Chinese folks contributing here.

 

[Wombat]

A problem with knee-jerk decisions is collateral damage.

 

[Cosmik]

A story of trading on nationality:
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/03/world/made-in-japan-or-not-that-is-the-question.html

It seemed a sure-fire marketing plan: sell consumer electronics goods branded with a Japanese name, a ''rising sun'' symbol and a catchy motto, ''Japanese Technology Made Perfect.''

For three years, the Matsui line of televisions, videotape recorders, radios and the like was an unqualified success for Currys, a leading British electronics retailer. But recently problems have arisen. First, it appears that the only thing Japanese in the Matsui products is the name. Second, the name happens to be that of a notorious Japanese war criminal.

 

[Wombat]

And there is this myth: Made in USA

 

[svart-hvitt]

So here’s a question I’ve been meaning to ask audiophiles.

Given two audio products of equivalent performance (e.g. using Amir’s measurement denominations), where one is made the USA (e.g. at least 70% parts/labor) and the other made in China, how much more are you willing to pay for Made in USA audio products?

(a) 10% more;
(b) 30% more;
(c) 50% more.

[Full disclosure: on a dollar total amount, my audio gear is dominated by US-Made, then Made in Japan, then China].

This is an unintelligent question. Because the answer is obvious. In the social sciences there are less direct links, less direct cause-effect, less one-period analysis; instead, social sciences are more «chaotic» due to subtleties, ripple effects, many-period settings, behaviour that changes etc.

If the question were something like «would you like to pay 30 percent more for certain imports if you got a 10 percent increase in wage, plus insurance and a more stable job», I guess people would answer differently.

Needless to say, asking audio related questions is easier than asking questions about our society.

I don’t know if you’re American, but if you are, you would probably know that the USA became an industrial nation as it disregarded English economists’ advice to practice free-trade. Instead, the USA took off as a nation while practicing protectionist policies to build up its own industrial base to produce higher value add products instead of supplying foreigners with cheap raw materials and unfinished goods.

 

[Wombat]

Reagan and Thatcher pushed free-trade. What goes-'round-comes-'round.

Many years ago I was gob-smacked to see a documentary about China purchasing an American lower-grade steel producing plant and sending Chinese workers to disassemble it for reconstruction in China. The happy US owners thought the Chinese were stupid. Talk about cutting your own throats. At the time China had little need for higher quality steel and got the plant for a pittance, and got a balance-of-trade benefit to boot.

I think the concept of longer term planning is somewhat lacking in the US and other Western economies. Short-term profit is the mantra in modern Capitalism. China is long-term investing in its land and sea 'silk-road' trade routes to establish a large trading bloc which is not dependent on the West. US isolationist policy is playing right into Chinese strategy, it seems.

No increase in Chinese goods prices Down-under. They have stopped taking our rubbish for recycling, though. I call it wising-up. They are now economically big enough to be choosy.

 

[Cosmik]

I think the concept of longer term planning is somewhat lacking in the US and other Western economies. Short-term profit is the mantra in modern Capitalism. China is long-term investing in its land and sea 'silk-road' trade routes to establish a large trading bloc which is not dependent on the West. US isolationist policy is playing right into Chinese strategy, it seems.

So when China uses state intervention to protect and build up its industry it is called investment and planning, but when the US starts to do the same thing it is called isolationism..?

 

[svart-hvitt]

So when China uses state intervention to protect and build up its industry it is called investment and planning, but when the US starts to do the same thing it is called isolationism..?

Double standards are twice as good, stupid!

 

[Wombat]

So when China uses state intervention to protect and build up its industry it is called investment and planning, but when the US starts to do the same thing it is called isolationism..?

I think intervention is called lobbying in democracies, usually accompanied by huge donations to political parties. "America first" is isolationism, no matter how you describe/excuse it. Not my manta, by the way.

 

[Cosmik]

I think intervention is called lobbying in democracies, usually accompanied by huge donations to political parties. "America first" is isolationism, no matter how you describe/excuse it. Not my manta, by the way.

It's not something I have a strong opinion on.

There's talk of globalisation being a good thing, but also a bad thing. Ditto free trade. Ditto borders or no borders.

The UK is potentially Brexiting out of a protectionist trading bloc. If we leave with a deal with the EU (i.e. maintaining protectionism against the rest of the world) we are apparently seen as more outward-looking and nice, but if we leave without a deal (maybe allowing us to go completely tariff-free) this apparently makes us xenophobic, isolationist and inward looking. Confusing!

 

[svart-hvitt]

It's not something I have a strong opinion on.

There's talk of globalisation being a good thing, but also a bad thing. Ditto free trade. Ditto borders or no borders.

The UK is potentially Brexiting out of a protectionist trading bloc. If we leave with a deal with the EU (i.e. maintaining protectionism against the rest of the world) we are apparently seen as more outward-looking and nice, but if we leave without a deal (maybe allowing us to go completely tariff-free) this apparently makes us xenophobic, isolationist and inward looking. Confusing!

If you don’t have the power to hold two contradictionary beliefs in your mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them, there is no hope for you, my friend.

 

[FrantzM]

This is an unintelligent question. Because the answer is obvious. In the social sciences there are less direct links, less direct cause-effect, less one-period analysis; instead, social sciences are more «chaotic» due to subtleties, ripple effects, many-period settings, behaviour that changes etc.

If the question were something like «would you like to pay 30 percent more for certain imports if you got a 10 percent increase in wage, plus insurance and a more stable job», I guess people would answer differently.

Needless to say, asking audio related questions is easier than asking questions about our society.

I don’t know if you’re American, but if you are, you would probably know that the USA became an industrial nation as it disregarded English economists’ advice to practice free-trade. Instead, the USA took off as a nation while practicing protectionist policies to build up its own industrial base to produce higher value add products instead of supplying foreigners with cheap raw materials and unfinished goods.

.... While copying shamelessly the intellectual properties of then megapower England ...
Please people take some time to read this (Please click here) ... sobering

History redux ...

 

[svart-hvitt]

While copying shamelessly the intellectual properties of then megapower England ...
Please people take some time to read this (Please click here) ... sobering

History redux ...

Are people moaning about intellectual properties the same as those who invented and use the notion of cultural appropriation (in music and elsewhere)?

 

[Wombat]

Empires rise and fall, usually slowly at first and eventually crash unexpectedly and rapidly. Heeding history requires a deeper and wider view.
Let's hope things work out, eh.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepa...obal-economy-declines-nearly-50/#2d49eea05e9e

 

[Cosmik]

Should national governments try to ensure that any public procurement decisions favour their own manufacturers?

The EU, I believe, forbids this - resulting in the UK awarding the contract for post-Brexit passport printing to a French company! - or some such tale.

Exemptions are always allowed: security issues, language barrier etc. and other countries are reputed to make ready use of these, but the UK seems to be scrupulous about not favouring its own industries. Is this a sensible policy ultimately providing better value, or rather silly if no one else does it?

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Empires rise and fall, usually slowly at first and eventually crash unexpectedly and rapidly. Heeding history requires a deeper and wider view.
Let's hope things work out, eh.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepa...obal-economy-declines-nearly-50/#2d49eea05e9e

That is not what is happening or why it is happening in this instance.

Yes, there are always cycles, but if a monkey throws a wrench into the gears, it can cause serious damage.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Empires rise and fall, usually slowly at first and eventually crash unexpectedly and rapidly. Heeding history requires a deeper and wider view.
Let's hope things work out, eh.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepa...obal-economy-declines-nearly-50/#2d49eea05e9e

A more nuanced view on countries over the course of history:

 

[Palladium]

I know I may take a bit of flack for this, but: "0%". I don't care about country of origin, because the whole premise feels flawed to me: what constitutes "made in"? Does it mean final assembly? Individual component construction? Raw material sourcing? Original design? Retail location? And why should I care one way or the other? Is this like baseball, where I'm always supposed to root for the home team? (And that's as far as I'll go down that path, since I'm pretty sure discussions of nationalism are seriously off-topic for ASR.)

Even the question itself assumes the reader is a US citizen or cares about US interests, and I'm pretty sure we have a few Chinese folks contributing here.

This man gets it, the "made in country X" is merely a label for where the final product assembly happens. I doubt most of you will consider stuff that is "Made in U.S" is really that so, when all that is done by U.S labor is to put on the screws...that also came from China.

Besides, the tariffs not only hurt the US consumers and China-based assemblers, but also the major upstream component suppliers like Japan, South Korea and Taiwan (needless to say they are also pissed). At the end of the day, it still will not bring China-dominated manufacturing sectors back to the U.S besides paper PR victories, because it will never have China's enormous state-guided infrastructure and supply base under the U.S
"short-term only" politics.