Targets for Dirac Live

[gorman]

I use the same curves for all speakers, including subwoofer. I assume they work the same in the room, regardless of sound material they get form a multichannel track.

I had Audyssey for a short time. The extra tuning of Dynamic EQ was that it increased volume of rear channels. Maybe maybe there was a reason for this, it kind of exaggerated sound effects in movies, but it felt unbalanced, when I moved my head or changed listening position.

Yeah, if one thinks about what the target curve produces, there is no sense in having them different. Unless hypothesis are made regarding what source material does (but source material always behaves differently, even more so if one considers 5.1 and Atmos music content).

 

[Adrianconst]

Yeah, if one thinks about what the target curve produces, there is no sense in having them different. Unless hypothesis are made regarding what source material does (but source material always behaves differently, even more so if one considers 5.1 and Atmos music content).

I exchanged several emails today with somebody at Dirac customer service. I couldn't get a straight answer to why Dirac uses different target curves by default. He suggested I use one curve for all speakers, as everybody suggested, but when I asked why Dirac doesn't do that by default, I got nothing. Either it's a big secret or they just screwed up and don't want to admit it.
The Dirac guy tried to sell me the thing about no target curve can be good for all content and SPL, and that i have to chose different curves for different purposes. That's not a good reason for not setting by default a decent tune, like Auddissey. When they advertise Dirac, they should state you need to buy a UMIK mic and play with REW in order to get something reasonable at any volume below 85db. If they did, I bet you a lot of people would turn around and buy AVRs that come with Auddissey, instead.
Not to mention that Dirac costs more than Auddissey, when you take into account the fact that Auddissey is included with the AVR, while Dirac is an addon for some AVRs. My Integra AVR came with Dirac Live. If I had to pay for it, I would kick myself.

 

[kyuu]

I exchanged several emails today with somebody at Dirac customer service. I couldn't get a straight answer to why Dirac uses different target curves by default.

Does it? I didn't notice that when I went through it, if so. In any case, it's simple to select all the speaker groups and apply the same curve so not a big deal IMO.

When they advertise Dirac, they should state you need to buy a UMIK mic and play with REW in order to get something reasonable at any volume below 85db. If they did, I bet you a lot of people would turn around and buy AVRs that come with Auddissey, instead.

Uh, what? They plainly advertise you need a measurement mic if the device doesn't include a suitable one in the box, but you certainly don't need REW unless you want to check the results for yourself. You'd need the same to check Audyssey's results.

Not to mention that Dirac costs more than Auddissey, when you take into account the fact that Auddissey is included with the AVR, while Dirac is an addon for some AVRs. My Integra AVR came with Dirac Live. If I had to pay for it, I would kick myself.

Audyssey has its own issues (default BBC dip, only XT32 has enough resolution in the bass to do a proper correction, need to buy the app to get rid of the dip and apply a curtain to the correction). It's also nowhere near as sophisticated as Dirac, though with XT32 and the app you can get acceptable results.

Dirac could stand to be easier to use, sure, but on the other hand we already have DSP enthusiasts around here who proclaim it's too automated as it is.

 

[Adrianconst]

Does it? I didn't notice that when I went through it, if so. In any case, it's simple to select all the speaker groups and apply the same curve so not a big deal IMO.

It does (see attached).

That's not the point. The point is that the automated tune is not useful.

Uh, what? They plainly advertise you need a measurement mic if the device doesn't include a suitable one in the box, but you certainly don't need REW unless you want to check the results for yourself. You'd need the same to check Audyssey's results.

I was talking about the need to try various curves until you get something that works. Auddisey tune was decent (not perfect) without needing to do anything else (I had MultEQ XT32 on my old Denon).

Audyssey has its own issues (default BBC dip, only XT32 has enough resolution in the bass to do a proper correction, need to buy the app to get rid of the dip and apply a curtain to the correction). It's also nowhere near as sophisticated as Dirac, though with XT32 and the app you can get acceptable results.

The mobile app is cheap, but it's hard to adjust the target curves with it. The PC app is more expensive.

Dirac could stand to be easier to use, sure, but on the other hand we already have DSP enthusiasts around here who proclaim it's too automated as it is.

I'm not saying it's hard to use. I'm actually asking for more user control. I don't know why they don't let me adjust the delays and the crossovers in the Dirac app.

The one obvious thing Dirac could do, since they don't have DEQ, is to do the tune for a given reference level, defined by the user.

 

[kyuu]

It does (see attached).

That's not the point. The point is that the automated tune is not useful.

That's weird, and not one of the complaints I can recall about Dirac (I've gone through many pages of the main Dirac thread on AVSforum). I'll have to take your word for it, since again I don't recall that being my experience. I didn't see any curves with a bass boost when I got to the filter step until I put them in myself. In any case, yeah that's not a useful behavior when the proper way, AFAIK, is to use the same target curve for all speaker groups.

I was talking about the need to try various curves until you get something that works. Auddisey tune was decent (not perfect) without needing to do anything else (I had MultEQ XT32 on my old Denon).

That's something that's also not my experience. The auto-curve that's applied is fine (which AFAIK should look like the one that's flat at bass and -2.5dB in the treble I believe), except that many will find a flat curve too bass shy. In the manual, it tells you to apply a 6dB boost in the bass if that's the case. I think the bass boost should be standard, since the vast majority will prefer it, but otherwise don't see the issue.

I'm not saying it's hard to use. I'm actually asking for more user control. I don't know why they don't let me adjust the delays and the crossovers in the Dirac app.

Why would you want to adjust the delays? And if you're talking about the subwoofer crossover, Dirac doesn't have any control over that unless you're using DLBC. For the "regular" Dirac, the AVR (or other device) is handling the bass management and you have to adjust it there.

The one obvious thing Dirac could do, since they don't have DEQ, is to do the tune for a given reference level, defined by the user.

If you're referring to loudness compensation here, then sure that'd be a great feature. On the other hand, Audyssey's dynamic EQ is largely unusable IMO because of the distracting boost to the surround channels when it's engaged.

 

[Adrianconst]

That's weird, and not one of the complaints I can recall about Dirac (I've gone through many pages of the main Dirac thread on AVSforum). I'll have to take your word for it, since again I don't recall that being my experience. I didn't see any curves with a bass boost when I got to the filter step until I put them in myself. In any case, yeah that's not a useful behavior when the proper way, AFAIK, is to use the same target curve for all speaker groups.

That's something that's also not my experience. The auto-curve that's applied is fine (which AFAIK should look like the one that's flat at bass and -2.5dB in the treble I believe), except that many will find a flat curve too bass shy. In the manual, it tells you to apply a 6dB boost in the bass if that's the case. I think the bass boost should be standard, since the vast majority will prefer it, but otherwise don't see the issue.

That is the target for surrounds. The plots I posted are the default targets Dirac came up with no additional adjustments from me.

It really depends what is the reference (dialogue) volume you listen to. For instance, the equal loudness curve for 60db and 2db drop from 20Hz to 20000Hz has a +14db at 20Hz and it drops to negative db at mid freq per the first post. For 65db, it's +11db at 20 Hz, and so on. So, I would guess that the 6db boost works when you listen closer to 85db. Plus, the db boost doesn't mimic the shape of the equal loudness curves anyway.

Why would you want to adjust the delays? And if you're talking about the subwoofer crossover, Dirac doesn't have any control over that unless you're using DLBC. For the "regular" Dirac, the AVR (or other device) is handling the bass management and you have to adjust it there.

Dirac (regular) sets the delay for the sub. I can see the delay on my AVR, but I can't adjust it. Adjusting that delay is another way to smooth out the crossover region between sub and fronts.

Every time I upload a new tune, the crossovers are reset to 70Hz for all speakers. The LFE crossover is set to 120Hz. In my previous post I was refering to the 70Hz crossovers.

If you're referring to loudness compensation here, then sure that'd be a great feature. On the other hand, Audyssey's dynamic EQ is largely unusable IMO because of the distracting boost to the surround channels when it's engaged.

I'm not asking Dirac to implement DEQ. Just asking to take the equal loudness curves into account. I didn't realize that Auddisey DEQ was distracting on the surrounds (when I was using Denon, my surrounds were not properly setup anyway, long story). Anyway, that may be the reason why Dirac doesn't boost the surrounds. But then, more reason to apply something like the equal loudness curves on the Dirac default tune.

Another thing I noticed with the default tune was that my surrounds were anemic. I was watching a scene where the voice was coming from the surrounds (the space ship computer was talking) and I could barely hear it. I had to increase the gain on the surrounds. When I switched to the curves posted in the first post, that was not a problem.

 

[popej]

I have extended range of targets, for those, who want to listen really quietly. It goes down to -50dB below reference, but I'm not sure if Dirac can make that much of boost at low frequency.

As previously: target-35dB.txt is for listening at -35dB below reference and is equivalent to target-r85-s50-h0.txt, target-45dB.txt would be equivalent to target-r85-s40-h0.txt

 

[anioq]

Thank you! I'm using them with Acoustica and they sound fantastic!