Tale of three A/B tests or where do diminishing returns start for untrained ear?

[mr.k]

Disclaimer: I am just regular guy whose really likes listening to the music first...equipment juggling fetish is very second distant

For years now my setup is B&W 686 (somewhere around 2005s), and old Pioneer 5.1 (XV-DV323) receiver which I'm using in stereo mode. Pioneer specification says: 75W per channel, 1kHz, 1%THD, 6ohm. When stereo mode is turned on, strong click is heard (relay?) and there is signal only on front channels, but I do not know does that increase power for front channels to more than 75 Wats or not. Both devices had average reviews at the time.

Of course, my speakers were entry level even back in 2005, and of course one does not use all-in-one-compact-receiver from 2005 for stereo listening, so I had several attempts to "upgrade" the sound. But....

Test Nr. 1: I tried with Rotel amplifier from A series (Rotel's entry series). If I were very generous, I would say that maybe the bass was a bit stronger, but my wife didn't notice anything.

Coming from science background, I never understood how amplifiers could sound different in the first place. So, it was relief to find this forum with general consensus "power is transparent, focus on speakers". Therefore...

Take Nr. 2.: I took my 686 to the shop. Very kind salesman provided me with Hegel amplifier. I connected my 686 first, then several Elacs at different price points (DBR62, Carina, Unifi)and for the end (much more expensive) Falcon LS3/5a.

Did those speakers sound different? Well...kind of. Did they sound "better" that 686? Not so sure. Would my wife notice difference? Absolutely not!
(Btw. I liked DBR62 which are loved here, they sounded "spacious" to me, but again, they didn't annihilate my 686, not at all)

Take Nr.3: Disappointed with results of previous test, I wanted to see what does it take for average listener (my wife) to notice a difference.
In our home office she was test subject in A/B/C comparison for following setups:

a) Pioneer receiver with B&W 686
b) Logitech x530 - again, very average rated desktop 5.1 system from mid 2000s. I only used left, right, and centre(!) channel with (bad) subwoofer on.
c) Two JBL Charge 3s, paired in stereo - so, small, cheapish bluetooth speakers

While she immediately disqualified small JBLs, she had more problems with deciding between Logitechs and B&Ws when center channel on Logitech was on.
When I turned off center channel on Logitech, soundstage fell apart, and she preferred 686. At least something... but I must admit I understood her dilemma

My questions:

1) If you (over)simplify results from my tests, it seems that my wife has trouble distinguishing budget Logitech desktop speakers from 35 times more expensive Falcons. Are the differences between speakers we discuss so much really so subtle for untrained ear, or is she just plain deaf ?

2) Am I aiming to low? To which speakers, if any, should I upgrade so improvement in sound would be obvious and significant ("night and day!") even for untrained ear?

3) For apartment living where high SPLs are almost irrelevant, what would high end speaker bring to the table when compared to good budget one (e.g., Dbr62), apart from build quality and pride in ownership?

4) I noticed that wide soundstage is far more important to me than pinpoint imaging, if I understand terms correctly. To be completely honest, I prefer what I call "shopping mall sound", full sound coming to me from all sides (not in the home theatre terms, music only). Should I go with more than two speakers per room for music, or find two speakers with very wide dispersion?

Thank you for your answers…and I apologize for long post and bad English

 

[Kustomize]

My experience with untrained ear carriers has been just this, if a speaker can play loud and push out some bass and not distort, its a winner, anything after seems to be diminishing! Imaging? Soundstage? Tonal balance? They have no idea what that is!

 

[Pio2001]

Maybe trained ears can distinguish the speakers "through the room" even under suboptimal acoustics conditions, while untrained ears are just hearing the obvious : bad room acoustics spoils everything equally.

 

[samwell7]

1) my experience with 'non-audio types' is much the same, really volume and bass seem to be the big ticket items.

2) I can't answer that but I don't think so, the DBR62 is a fine speaker and has done well in its recent rest by Amir.

3) I'd say better accuracy, more neutral representation with nothing more accentuated than the anything else, with that being said our ears perceive frequencies differently at different volumes (that's what the 'loudness' buttons on stereos are for). Probably still a more accurate sound

4) that's up to you, you could try getting 5 or so cheaper bookshelf speakers and running your AV receiver in all channel stereo. At the end of the day if you prefer the sound of 5 cheaper speakers over 2 very nice ones then roll with it (maybe try 5x Sony SS-CS5s, I've seen people do this and be happy with the results)

Really the crux of my argument is that if you're generally happy with how it sounds then leave it, nothing worse than only being able to focus on how your gear sounds (rather than listening to the music) and magnifying small issues until that one bass note is the only thing you can hear - trust me it drives me wild!

 

[solderdude]

I used the same Logitechs (but the 2.1 ch version) for many years on my PC. These were one of the very few small sized yet good sounding PC speakers back then.

1) If you (over)simplify results from my tests, it seems that my wife has trouble distinguishing budget Logitech desktop speakers from 35 times more expensive Falcons. Are the differences between speakers we discuss so much really so subtle for untrained ear, or is she just plain deaf ?

She just doesn't care like you do.

2) Am I aiming to low? To which speakers, if any, should I upgrade so improvement in sound would be obvious and significant ("night and day!") even for untrained ear?

The wife doesn't seem to care. You are fine with what you have. So spend your money on other things.

3) For apartment living where high SPLs are almost irrelevant, what would high end speaker bring to the table when compared to good budget one (e.g., Dbr62), apart from build quality and pride in ownership?

You can bring more to the table by using room treatment or EQ most likely.

4) I noticed that wide soundstage is far more important to me than pinpoint imaging, if I understand terms correctly. To be completely honest, I prefer what I call "shopping mall sound", full sound coming to me from all sides (not in the home theatre terms, music only). Should I go with more than two speakers per room for music, or find two speakers with very wide dispersion?

That would totally depend on the room and how reflective surfaces are. You can also use 'spatializer' stuff. Some really like that kind of 'alterations'.

 

[sfdoddsy]

Personally, I’d count your lucky stars if you are honest enough to admit you can’t hear a major difference.

You can get off the never-ending audiophile circus and just enjoy.

Years ago I realised I couldn’t hear a difference between amps, CD players, cables, codecs, etc etc and it has saved me thousands.

I still obsess over speakers, but if I am honest all of the good speakers I’ve owned have been
musically satisfying

 

[Kustomize]

Personally, I’d count your lucky stars if you are honest enough to admit you can’t hear a major difference.

You can get off the never-ending audiophile circus and just enjoy.

Years ago I realised I couldn’t hear a difference between amps, CD players, cables, codecs, etc etc and it has saved me thousands.

I still obsess over speakers, but if I am honest all of the good speakers I’ve owned have been
musically satisfying

The day I start believing cables make a difference, please get me sent into exile.

 

[Lorenzo74]

I like all posts here, the opposite of audiophoolery.

my humble suggestion to Mr. K is:
1. buy an Umik1 and download REW.
2. watch on YouTube any DIY sound panel absorption video. Ask your wife to help you with a mirror and search for first reflections: Ceiling, floor and laterals. go for rugged carpet, thick (min. 50x50x10cm) panels at first reflection points and then do the A/B test.

If you like what you get but still unsatisfied by the noAudiophile journey:
3. buy minidsp ddrc24 or dirac live software plug-in.
if still not superhappy
4. go to 100$ tpa3251-55 3Eaudio integrated amplifier or buy Pro Audio Active speakers like KALI LP6-8 or ADAM Audio T5-7-8 (T7V just below 400€ a pair) and you're wife will definitely smile with thumbs up...

healthy 2020 end
best
Lorenzo

 

[raistlin65]

Take Nr. 2.: I took my 686 to the shop. Very kind salesman provided me with Hegel amplifier. I connected my 686 first, then several Elacs at different price points (DBR62, Carina, Unifi)and for the end (much more expensive) Falcon LS3/5a.

Did those speakers sound different? Well...kind of. Did they sound "better" that 686? Not so sure. Would my wife notice difference? Absolutely not!
(Btw. I liked DBR62 which are loved here, they sounded "spacious" to me, but again, they didn't annihilate my 686, not at all)

If the difference is "Well...kind of," then is there a long term benefit in the aesthetic experience of listening to music?

In other words, six weeks from now after only having one pair in your home, would you be just as happy listening to music with the 686 as the other speakers?

 

[tuga]

If the difference is "Well...kind of," then is there a long term benefit in the aesthetic experience of listening to music?

In other words, six weeks from now after only having one pair in your home, would you be just as happy listening to music with the 686 as the other speakers?

That may take 6 months to reply.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

1) If you (over)simplify results from my tests, it seems that my wife has trouble distinguishing budget Logitech desktop speakers from 35 times more expensive Falcons. Are the differences between speakers we discuss so much really so subtle for untrained ear, or is she just plain deaf ?

2) Am I aiming to low? To which speakers, if any, should I upgrade so improvement in sound would be obvious and significant ("night and day!") even for untrained ear?

3) For apartment living where high SPLs are almost irrelevant, what would high end speaker bring to the table when compared to good budget one (e.g., Dbr62), apart from build quality and pride in ownership?

4) I noticed that wide soundstage is far more important to me than pinpoint imaging, if I understand terms correctly. To be completely honest, I prefer what I call "shopping mall sound", full sound coming to me from all sides (not in the home theatre terms, music only). Should I go with more than two speakers per room for music, or find two speakers with very wide dispersion?

Many questions, and 2. I really can not answer. But your questions are important and relevant to a lot of people, including the casual listener not so into audio gear.

Differences can be huge and significant, but what you have set up here will sound more or less the same, there may be subtle differences and those can be easy to hear, but the overall experience is on the same level.

High spl is not required to enjoy high quality sound reproduction. Better speakers also sound much better at low spl, and fortunately, low spl can be less strict on requirements for acoustics.

To conclude that you like a specific type of sound presentation when you never have experienced what is possible to do, can prevent you from gaining experience and knowledge on how things actually can be, and how to achieve a specific sound. A good system will present holographic sound that fills the room and makes instruments appear as objects, all at the same time.

So, yes;

- Most of the speakers discussed on this forum are more equal than different - technically and for sound.
- You set the bar too low - far too low.
- There are very significant differences in sound between different speaker systems - when those actually are different, from a technical perspective.

 

[JeffS7444]

Falcon LS3/5A is very expensive for a small 2-way speaker with passive crossover, best to leave that to LS3/5A fans.

 

[watchnerd]

Once you get to the upper echelons of speakers, it's often more about picking what compromises one prefers instead of absolute better or worse.

 

[mr.k]

If the difference is "Well...kind of," then is there a long term benefit in the aesthetic experience of listening to music?

In other words, six weeks from now after only having one pair in your home, would you be just as happy listening to music with the 686 as the other speakers?

Well, I drool over Luxmans, Davones and similar stuff all the time. But I would feel utterly stupid if it turns out that several thousands dollars later I have a lot of beautiful boxes and only I can hear they're sounding different

 

[mr.k]

Once you get to the upper echelons of speakers, it's often more about picking what compromises one prefers instead of absolute better or worse.

As the youtube channel of one of members here says, there is fear of missing out. And unfortunately, I am not in position to have sanity check with speakers worth thousands of dollars every now and then

As lot of times here stated, I find it very similar with vines and whiskeys.

You can write thousand words poetry describing delicate aromas and differences, but in the end, could it be that... Zu is from Islay, Genelec Speyside, and the rest of the bunch are just different variations of Highland, if you know what I mean

 

[watchnerd]

As the youtube channel of one of members here says, there is fear of missing out. And unfortunately, I am not in position to have sanity check with speakers worth thousands of dollars every now and then

As lot of times here stated, I find it very similar with vines and whiskeys.

You can write thousand words poetry describing delicate aromas and differences, but in the end, could it be that... Zu is from Islay, Genelec Speyside, and the rest of the bunch are just different variations of Highland, if you know what I mean

Oh, variations in house sound between makers I find easier to pick my preference.

But when you get to the difference between a TOTL model from a given maker and the 2nd best model from the same company, it can be like comparing different vintage years of the exact same wine.

 

[watchnerd]

Well, I drool over Luxmans, Davones and similar stuff all the time. But I would feel utterly stupid if it turns out that several thousands dollars later I have a lot of beautiful boxes and only I can hear they're sounding different

I'm "upgrading" from Dynaudio Contour 20 to the Dynaudio Heritage Special. I don't think the Heritage Specials are better across the board than the Contour 20, but they're definitely different.

But eff it -- I like the cabinetry better on the Heritage Special.

I can live with that.

 

[Ron Texas]

Just a thought here for the OP. The 686 has the B&W high frequency response which is far from flat. If you don't have a calibrated microphone and know the basics of using free REW, now is the time. It's a rare system which does not benefit from EQ.

 

[Lorenzo74]

As the youtube channel of one of members here says, there is fear of missing out. And unfortunately, I am not in position to have sanity check with speakers worth thousands of dollars every now and then

As lot of times here stated, I find it very similar with vines and whiskeys.

You can write thousand words poetry describing delicate aromas and differences, but in the end, could it be that... Zu is from Islay, Genelec Speyside, and the rest of the bunch are just different variations of Highland, if you know what I mean

Which wine do you like? Red, white, sparkling? Cabernet, Pinot Noir, Supertuscans? Amp and speaker are like that. The point is we are trying to get a RP or WS number but 99 points really worth 10-20X a 92-94?
(I guess you know what I mean...)

 

[watchnerd]

Wich wine donyou like? Red, white, sparkling? Cabernet, Pinot Noir, Supertuscans? Amp and speaker are like that. The point is we are trying to get a RP or WS number but 99 points really worth 10-20X a 92-94?
(I guess you know what I mean...)

I'll agree with you on speakers but not on amps.

But I get your analogy to wine prices and WS scores.