System architecture - "traditional" vs computer-centric

[klettermann]

Thanks to all for taking the time to respond. This was actually very helpful. And no, I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. In hindsight my examples were more like opposite end points in a continuum. I've got a kind of Rip Van Winkle thing in audio - running something for years or decades and just letting it run, then a upgrade/replacement cycle, then repeat. The replacement cycle is always fun and interesting because it's like starting fresh with all kinds of new stuff to learn about. That's where I am now, the "new stuff" being a serious media room with serious treatment and DRM. My evolution followed a pretty typical path:

1. 70's, early 80s: [LP's, R2R] -->
2. Late 80s: [R2R, CDs] -->
3. Early 90s - ~2017: [CDs, DAT] -->
4. ~2017 - 2024: [CDs, DAT, streaming] -->
5. 2024 - present: [Media room, DRM, subs added, CDs, DAT, Streaming]

Stage 5 really put the room, EQ and sub integration front and center for me. At the same time I became aware of the whole computer audio thing, with USB challenges, special networking and explicit audio computers. I know, a streamer is computer, but it's pretty well hidden to the user - no scripts, no OS choices, no Linux distro questions, etc, etc. And also USB cable challenges, troublesome networks, etc etc. People obviously think it's a good use of their money. And yet, is those circles, there's little apparent priority on room treatment or DRM. So this has kind of baked my brain into a state of cognitive dissonance, or at least wondering if there is something there. Hope this makes sense. Thanks again and cheers,

 

[William H.]

…

2. Computer-centric system
Music server / streaming service
→ Mac Mini / NUC / PC running Roon or HQPlayer
…

Another computer-centric option for Apple Music would be any USB C iPhone or iPad. A direct connection to a DAC, or SPDIF Optical provides direct stable input for devices without or with with internal DACs, respectively.

There are several inexpensive iOS, iPad app options that interface with the devices’ Apple Music libraries. Albums: Music Library player offers an album centric experience while the Lysoniq app offers a direct or remote control interface to the devices local Apple Music Library or Apple Music Libraries on other devices. Fro example, you can remotely use an iPad to control the Apple Music Library on an iPhone wired to a preamp, integrated amp or streamer.

I use a Cubilux Z10-22BK USB Type C to Toslink adapter with pass-through charging. This device supports up 192KHz/24bit for input to a WiiM Pro Plus streamer though I use Apple Music 24-bit/48 kHz lossless media. It’s convenient to charge the device while streaming, especially if the Apple iOS/ipadOS device support an 80% maximum charge level.

I avoid using macOS for Apple Music input. MacOS’ CoreAudio always internally resamples the data. Nor does macOS automatically switch per-track data-rate switching.

 

[Bland_username42069]

You can clearly get a top line system using a computer.

Personally I just don’t want a computer as part of my system though

 

[klettermann]

You can clearly get a top line system using a computer.

Personally I just don’t want a computer as part of my system though

Me too. I find a real computer (eg laptop) clunky. Ok, a phone controlled streamer is technically a microcomputer controlling a computer. But it doesn't look or feel like one.

 

[Bland_username42069]

Me too. I find a real computer (eg laptop) clunky. Ok, a phone controlled streamer is technically a microcomputer controlling a computer. But it doesn't look or feel like one.

Yes I prefer just to use my phone as a controller if I want to stream. Can just zone out in the chair and have a good explore of a genre for hours without moving. As long as the DAC has peq if room correction is important then that’s the best solution personally but it’s all a very personal choice.

 

[Redacted]

If you stream online, play files over your LAN, or use a phone, you are inherently computer-centric - it's really about where the computer part lives; either integrated in one or more device, or it's a device in its own right. Surely it just comes down to IP packets versus digital bitstreams (which may also be embedded in IP packets) versus analogue signalling. I'd rule out microcontrollers that may be say, CD players, or DACs as they are kind of very local to the device, and don't usually have a network stack included. Maybe network stack or not is the way to look at it.

I'd say most good modern kit is computer-centric, and that usually encompasses, capability-wise everything you might call "traditional".
I'm very happy with a 'just add speakers unit' - it sounds fine, is small, and has massive WAF - I can play analogue sources, files over DLNA from a RAID/NAS, play sound from my TV (which on its own has abysmal sound), poke music into it from my phone with BT or over WiFi. I also use a PC in my office with a USB DAC, which sounds just as good. I sold all my vinyl years ago, and never looked back - I took the view that I saved so much money, that I could buy a lifetime-supply of bowls of rice-krispies, to bash with my forehead to get the same vinyl joy... I digress, sorry I'm not really sure where this thread is leading to....

 

[CD2]

For me the main problem with computers is they have been Windows machines which means you have to manage a dysfunctional beehive that periodically wants to update itself and generally creates a whole bunch of problems old gear didn't.

 

[antcollinet]

[Media room, DRM, subs added, CDs, DAT, Streaming]

Confused. What do you mean by DRM?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

PC based systems are hard to beat but have one major issue which is there is really no practical way to play Dolby Atmos music without a Dolby receiver at which point why bother with a PC.

Working on that problem now. An early example of a solution, https://nuprime-x.com/product/h16-aes/.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

For me the main problem with computers is they have been Windows machines which means you have to manage a dysfunctional beehive that periodically wants to update itself and generally creates a whole bunch of problems old gear didn't.

Sure. I hear this a lot. OTOH, my WinPC (and Mac) audio setups have been stable despite updates.

 

[klettermann]

Confused. What do you mean by DRM?

Oops, meant DRC, sorry. Digital room correction - EQing, sub integration with mains, phase alignment, etc. I'm using MiniDSP Studio. This made the biggest SQ improvement by far.

 

[Ruediger]

Network optimization devices - what does that mean?

If it means not putting everything wireless to the homerouter and wonder about outages - cables and a simple switch have more bandwidth than music can consume.

Is there anything else?

 

[Keith_W]

Network optimization devices - what does that mean?

If it means not putting everything wireless to the homerouter and wonder about outages - cables and a simple switch have more bandwidth than music can consume.

Is there anything else?

It means those ethernet reclockers, audiophile switches, audiophile network cables, etc. IOW, the domain of the stupid.

 

[john61ct]

OK so, you've clarified you do not want a general-purpose PC as your player, I concur.

You clearly don't want to spend money on pointless dicking around, strive for transparency and accuracy, reproducing the original art best as possible.

Which after buying top notch loudspeakers

means EQing those speakers and DRC.

However, there are no ways to get those without DSP processing. The latter general technology can be used for good or evil (pointless dicking around).

Another big decision is just stereo or multichannel ?

Subwoofers are usually required.

DSP also makes those integration issues much easier.

Proprietary boxes with lots of channels get very expensive.

Using specialised more "open platform" little quiet cheap computers with software solutions to get the DSP processing you need gives LOTS more choices, flexibility

But has steeper learning curves.

You make your choices, pay the prices required to get the benefits you want.

But in all cases avoid the evil, pointless dicking around.

 

[Bland_username42069]

OK so, you've clarified you do not want a general-purpose PC as your player, I concur.

You clearly don't want to spend money on pointless dicking around, strive for transparency and accuracy, reproducing the original art best as possible.

Which after buying top notch loudspeakers

means EQing those speakers and DRC.

However, there are no ways to get those without DSP processing. The latter general technology can be used for good or evil (pointless dicking around).

Another big decision is just stereo or multichannel ?

Subwoofers are usually required.

DSP also makes those integration issues much easier.

Proprietary boxes with lots of channels get very expensive.

Using specialised more "open platform" little quiet cheap computers with software solutions to get the DSP processing you need gives LOTS more choices, flexibility

But has steeper learning curves.

You make your choices, pay the prices required to get the benefits you want.

But in all cases avoid the evil, pointless dicking around.

You can get a wiim mini for £80 with 10 band peq and room correction. No need to spend big money and you’re good to go in 10 minutes

 

[Ruediger]

It means those ethernet reclockers, audiophile switches, audiophile network cables, etc. IOW, the domain of the stupid.

Ah I see. I have seen reclockers, obviously fancy network cables, but audiophile switches are new to me.

It needs no measurement to know those are bogus products. OP should strike that from his list.

As an IT guy I can add: if you do an installation with a handful of network devices, you can use basic cat5 cabling and usually be good. To reduce the cable mess a bit a simple 5/8 port switch (Netgear f.e.) for the rack(s) can help. It's just short cables and one uplink cable then.

Nowadays even fanless 2.5gbe switches are rather cheap. And small boxes with 10gbe uplink ports. If a server is in there or a wireless access point with 2.5gbe uplink ports for wifi6/7, think about buying higher backbone speed in general. Probably all still Ok with cat5, but from 2.5gbe up I would do cat6 cables.

 

[klettermann]

Ah I see. I have seen reclockers, obviously fancy network cables, but audiophile switches are new to me.

It needs no measurement to know those are bogus products. OP should strike that from his list.

Yes, some of that stuff seems pretty crazy oops, I meant exotic. But have a look at this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about. Another fascination seems to be USB, apparently the preferred interconnect in those circles. And that leads, in turn, to endless debate about the problems created by USB. These guys are fascinated by such things. Yet room treatment never comes up.

 

[Ruediger]

Yes, some of that stuff seems pretty crazy oops, I meant exotic. But have a look at this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about. Another fascination seems to be USB, apparently the preferred interconnect in those circles. And that leads, in turn, to endless debate about the problems created by USB. These guys are fascinated by such things. Yet room treatment never comes up.

Oh yeah I see there are some gems in there. At a quick glance the guy who cleans his fibre interconnects frequently made my day. I mean you don't have know that these are either link or no link, but influence on sound quality.. far off the real world..

 

[john61ct]

Most productive approach to such conversations is to ignore them, learn how to avoid even encountering them.

And certainly to abstain from lumping them together in your thinking wrt the proper applications of "newfangled" and very useful digital technologies, whether based on poweful and cheap general-purpose PCs, or the other more specialised small / silent devices.

 

[Frunse]

Hello i start also an PC Based DSP Project with looking to that Nuprime X H16-AES HDMI Processor Device 900€ is not that bad.
Also Hyperion DPR 16 would be nice but 4k€ isn't cheep lol

My Plan is:
I will use an RME HDSPe AES 16x16 96kHz (ordered) on an Intel Core i5 11600 smal computer system with CamillaDSP (64Bit Processing FIR Filter) for an full aktive 7.2 System

Thats planty off Processing Power i guess (Had 16 Chanle Out running with 2 way Fir Filter with around 25% Processingpower used on an RPI 5)

Will first try to run it on an Linux system if it won't work i use Windows 10 with RME ASIO Driver and fancy RME Config Software.

For the first tests i ordered me 3 SMSL su-2 DACS for 2x 3Way Speaker test with HYPEX MC122 and MC 250 Amps.

If this will work like sugested i will decide what kind of HDMI to AES Surroundprocessor i need

For now my Setup works wit an HDMI to i2s 8 Chanle Extractor (LPCM only) on an RPI5 with 2x MOTU Ultralite 5 (16 Analog Chanel Out) (Will sell them than)

If this works i will use that SMSL su-2 for Surround and Center CHannel and may be something better for the Main Speaker but i guess them will work already well.

On that MOTU Ultralight 5 are also Sabre DACS running so let see how they will perform.

If i had Money i would also go for that Nice HAPI MK3 Interface with 16 Analogue CHannels LOOOOL But around 7K with that Ultra Analogue Cards and around 6K with Standart ones

For me it isn't an Brainer to route an ASE kabel or an Ethernet Kabel to an Aktiv Speaker so AES is something that works already for Ages in Studios.

With that AES67 or DANTE it will become realy fast realy expensive if you want to do it right without pops in digital Audio Transfere.

But Sure much more Possabilities, I wil life in an smal Apartment so no need for AES67 LooooL