SVS 3000 Micro Subwoofer (announced)

[Daka]

Daka, I believe you have some misconceptions. Faster? It is a sub. It has a frequency response. Most sub drivers can easily produce 300 Hz at X-max. You are crossing them at 80 or so. Do not confuse the mid-bass where the impact comes from with what the sub does. That's magazine reviewer double speak. Poor impact is more often pushing the mains too hard as they don't have the correct high pass filter on them or are just not up to the job.

Ported subs need not be boomy. Only badly designed ones are. We learned this in the early 60's thanks to Theil and Small. Too small a box typically to get a big hump to make the uninformed think they go deeper. Failure to control excursion another common fault. ( Yes, subs should have a HIGH PASS filter on them just as tweeters should have a LOW PASS filter on them.

I do prefer Critical Q subs as they blend with room gain better as second order rather than third, but much bigger. Actually , anything below .7 is OK, A lot won't go below .6 no matter how large the box. Ports big enough for no noise and no resonance issues can get quite impractical. Otherwise BP4 and 6 have some advantages. Just too hard to pull off.

Maybe used layman terms but the speed the woofer moves does matter - bigger woofers will push more air and will be slower than smaller ones - basic physics. Boominess I meant as in the difference between ported and sealed - sealed tend to be tighter, clearer, more focused than ported which will deliver more boom. When it comes to integrating sub with speakers for music, if your speakers are good the woofers will move fast with precision - its hard to expect 12 or bigger inch subwoofer to be able to keep up with it regardless whether sealed or not.
Without doubt general consensus is micro 3000 is tighter, clearer bass than sb1000 pro - and its got nothing to do with SPL at any frequency.
Does that make sense?

 

[tvrgeek]

Basic physics yes. It only has to move fast enough ( with some overhead) to reach X-Max within the use band. If a 15 has shorter excursion than a 10, of course, it can move slower than the 10 to move the same amount of air. But I stand my ground, all this "speed" stuff is made up advertising as your sense of impact and speed is in the 200 to 300 Hz range and your sub is crossed @ 80 or so. It only has to move fast enough for that. Good design would suggest an octave overhead.

I am not saying you can't hear! Please, no offence. I am saying what you hear is not the sub.

I have built a lot of speakers. Your comparisons on alignment are incorrect. I can make a ported enclosure just as clean as a sealed. I can make a sealed one sound like total mush. Many speakers, even expensive ones, do not deal with port velocities and resonances well. To get the box to a marketing specified form factor, SOP is too small and tuned too low, hence the boom you hear is due to incorrect resonance dampening. It is the execution, not the technology.

Sealed are easier to do well, and more tolerant of manufacturing variations, but for the same size, do not look as good on a slick sheet as F3 is higher even though listening in a room may not sound much different. If I advertise a ported box at 45Hz, and a sealed at 60, no one would buy the sealed even though they have a crossover to their sub at 80 and sound identical as neither is working in the roll-off region. Even the group delays have merged. For a sub, as I mentioned, I prefer the sealed with a higher F3, but second order blends with room gain closer, so less or no eq is needed. Third order needs to be rolled off higher and then helped a little down low. Rarely is the crossover if not DSP doing that. A sealed box F3 of 50 Hz makes a very easy to use sub. Not better, easier.

Maybe they can get one in the Queue for Amirm. It looks like a winner for it's intended market.

 

[SS55]

@Daka There is no such thing as speed and quickness of a subwoofer. 50hz is faster than 30hz, if a subwoofer is unable to play 30hz audibly, then 50hz region will be louder and that sounds like a drawback to me.
You can use room gain compensation on SVS app to cut bass from 40hz and lower in your sb1000 pro. This will bring the frequency response closer to your 3000 micro.

 

[mike70]

Very good concepts here ... is what we need on a science based forum.

I set my crossover at 60hz (default 12dB slope) with the R3, they are very capable since 60 Hz. I need time to do more experimentation and basic measurements (I have the umik-1 microphone), but subjectively 60 Hz is better than 40 Hz.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Very good concepts here ... is what we need on a science based forum.

I set my crossover at 60hz (default 12dB slope) with the R3, they are very capable since 60 Hz. I need time to do more experimentation and basic measurements (I have the umik-1 microphone), but subjectively 60 Hz is better than 40 Hz.

Sounds better blocking the port from R3+ ur sub?

 

[Daka]

@Daka There is no such thing as speed and quickness of a subwoofer. 50hz is faster than 30hz, if a subwoofer is unable to play 30hz audibly, then 50hz region will be louder and that sounds like a drawback to me.
You can use room gain compensation on SVS app to cut bass from 40hz and lower in your sb1000 pro. This will bring the frequency response closer to your 3000 micro.

Basic physics yes. It only has to move fast enough ( with some overhead) to reach X-Max within the use band. If a 15 has shorter excursion than a 10, of course, it can move slower than the 10 to move the same amount of air. But I stand my ground, all this "speed" stuff is made up advertising as your sense of impact and speed is in the 200 to 300 Hz range and your sub is crossed @ 80 or so. It only has to move fast enough for that. Good design would suggest an octave overhead.

I am not saying you can't hear! Please, no offence. I am saying what you hear is not the sub.

I have built a lot of speakers. Your comparisons on alignment are incorrect. I can make a ported enclosure just as clean as a sealed. I can make a sealed one sound like total mush. Many speakers, even expensive ones, do not deal with port velocities and resonances well. To get the box to a marketing specified form factor, SOP is too small and tuned too low, hence the boom you hear is due to incorrect resonance dampening. It is the execution, not the technology.

Sealed are easier to do well, and more tolerant of manufacturing variations, but for the same size, do not look as good on a slick sheet as F3 is higher even though listening in a room may not sound much different. If I advertise a ported box at 45Hz, and a sealed at 60, no one would buy the sealed even though they have a crossover to their sub at 80 and sound identical as neither is working in the roll-off region. Even the group delays have merged. For a sub, as I mentioned, I prefer the sealed with a higher F3, but second order blends with room gain closer, so less or no eq is needed. Third order needs to be rolled off higher and then helped a little down low. Rarely is the crossover if not DSP doing that. A sealed box F3 of 50 Hz makes a very easy to use sub. Not better, easier.

Maybe they can get one in the Queue for Amirm. It looks like a winner for it's intended market.

I get your point. I thought speed in terms how quickly woofer can come back from Xmax to resting/nominal position. Is there any specific feature that makes one sub to integrate better than others with speakers? Frequency pretty much depends on combination of diameter and Xmax asfaik. Thanks for clarifying what’s what clearly you know what you’re talking about

 

[mike70]

Sounds better blocking the port from R3+ ur sub?

Never tried ... good advice.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Never tried ... good advice.

please let me know the result, in my point of view by blocking the port and adding a sub the sound will become much better, you aren't going to deal with the port in your room, that can change a lot of things.

 

[jgiannakas]

please let me know the result, in my point of view by blocking the port and adding a sub the sound will become much better, you aren't going to deal with the port in your room, that can change a lot of things.

I’ve experimented with my R3s and 3000 micro with the ports fully and partly plugged and completely unplugged.

It will all depend on your room placement. I’ve got mine close to the wall so a completely unplugged scenario caused a significant hump around the XO frequency with the sub. Fully plugged caused the mid lows to loose some amplitude. I’ve settled with the half plug and the sub crossed at 90hz, purely based on room measurements.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I’ve experimented with my R3s and 3000 micro with the ports fully and partly plugged and completely unplugged.

It will all depend on your room placement. I’ve got mine close to the wall so a completely unplugged scenario caused a significant hump around the XO frequency with the sub. Fully plugged caused the mid lows to loose some amplitude. I’ve settled with the half plug and the sub crossed at 90hz, purely based on room measurements.

Half plug apparently works very well, i use them in my R7 + in room EQ
But if i have a subwoofer, i'll prefer playing with placement again and remove what is doing that port.. ( full plug port )

 

[SS55]

I get your point. I thought speed in terms how quickly woofer can come back from Xmax to resting/nominal position. Is there any specific feature that makes one sub to integrate better than others with speakers? Frequency pretty much depends on combination of diameter and Xmax asfaik. Thanks for clarifying what’s what clearly you know what you’re talking about

Integration is pretty much down to crossover frequency, crossover slope, subwoofer level, subwoofer placement and your room. Since everything below the transition frequency is room dependent, I suggest you go through this thread if you haven’t

Subwoofer / Low Frequency Optimization

Subwoofer / Low Frequency Optimization By Amir Majidimehr [Note: This article was published in the May/June 2012 issue of Widescreen Review Magazine] Do you remember the scene in the movie Stargate where Daniel Jackson decodes the symbols that allow them to open the Stargate to travel to...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Bear123]

I get your point. I thought speed in terms how quickly woofer can come back from Xmax to resting/nominal position. Is there any specific feature that makes one sub to integrate better than others with speakers? Frequency pretty much depends on combination of diameter and Xmax asfaik. Thanks for clarifying what’s what clearly you know what you’re talking about

Frequency is determined by how fast the woofer moves. The signal sent to the woofer tells the woofer what frequency to play, which in turn determines how fast the woofer moves. It moves faster for higher frequencies, and slower for lower frequencies. That's why subjective audiophile gobbledygook reviews/sites that claim sealed subs are "faster" than ported subs are spreading false misconceptions. If the sealed sub moved faster, it would literally be playing the wrong(higher) frequency. The main force controlling movement of the cone is the magnetic force of the motor assembly. Small woofers are not necessarily any tighter, punchier, faster, crispier(insert made up audiophile adjective of choice) than larger subs even up to 18" in diameter. In fact, 18" pro audio drivers with lightweight cones and extremely strong motors are some of the most superbly suited subs in existence for music reproduction. It's true that a light weight 10"woofer can be lighter than an 18" subwoofer, but the ratio of motor strength to cone weight can be higher with the 18, making it even more well suited to music and mid/upper bass reproduction. By the same token, a heavy, high excursion, low efficiency, ultra deep bass 18" driver would certainly be less suited for mid/upper bass than a smaller, lighter 12" high efficiency driver. There is no blanket statement that can be made, other than when it comes to subs, all else being equal, bigger is better, at *EVERYTHING*(other than being smaller). Want the best, highest output, lowest distortion, best sound quality subwoofer? Get the best 18" sub…it will do literally everything better than a smaller sub. Pick your poison as to whether you want a deep bass specialist, which will give up some mid/upper bass capability. Or choose a light weight, high sensitivity low xmax pro driver….you give up a lot of deep bass but gain superb mid/upper bass capability. Want the best of both worlds, choose something like this:
BMS 18N862 18" pro audio woofer. ….perhaps one of the best "all around" subwoofer drivers made.
Another point in favor of the superior sound quality larger drivers are capable of is that small 8, 10, 12, or even 15" woofers have to use alot more excursion to produce the same SPL as an 18"…this results in higher distortion, lower sound quality, heavier cone, etc. An 18" sub barely has to move and has ultra low distortion to produce the same SPL that will have little baby 8" woofers puking their guts out with distortion and high excursion.

There's a reason kick drums aren't tiny…smaller isn't better.

 

[mike70]

Frequency is determined by how fast the woofer moves. The signal sent to the woofer tells the woofer what frequency to play, which in turn determines how fast the woofer moves. It moves faster for higher frequencies, and slower for lower frequencies. That's why subjective audiophile gobbledygook reviews/sites that claim sealed subs are "faster" than ported subs are spreading false misconceptions. If the sealed sub moved faster, it would literally be playing the wrong(higher) frequency. The main force controlling movement of the cone is the magnetic force of the motor assembly. Small woofers are not necessarily any tighter, punchier, faster, crispier(insert made up audiophile adjective of choice) than larger subs even up to 18" in diameter. In fact, 18" pro audio drivers with lightweight cones and extremely strong motors are some of the most superbly suited subs in existence for music reproduction. It's true that a light weight 10"woofer can be lighter than an 18" subwoofer, but the ratio of motor strength to cone weight can be higher with the 18, making it even more well suited to music and mid/upper bass reproduction. By the same token, a heavy, high excursion, low efficiency, ultra deep bass 18" driver would certainly be less suited for mid/upper bass than a smaller, lighter 12" high efficiency driver. There is no blanket statement that can be made, other than when it comes to subs, all else being equal, bigger is better, at *EVERYTHING*(other than being smaller). Want the best, highest output, lowest distortion, best sound quality subwoofer? Get the best 18" sub…it will do literally everything better than a smaller sub. Pick your poison as to whether you want a deep bass specialist, which will give up some mid/upper bass capability. Or choose a light weight, high sensitivity low xmax pro driver….you give up a lot of deep bass but gain superb mid/upper bass capability. Want the best of both worlds, choose something like this:
BMS 18N862 18" pro audio woofer. ….perhaps one of the best "all around" subwoofer drivers made.
Another point in favor of the superior sound quality larger drivers are capable of is that small 8, 10, 12, or even 15" woofers have to use alot more excursion to produce the same SPL as an 18"…this results in higher distortion, lower sound quality, heavier cone, etc. An 18" sub barely has to move and has ultra low distortion to produce the same SPL that will have little baby 8" woofers puking their guts out with distortion and high excursion.

There's a reason kick drums aren't tiny…smaller isn't better.

I think this is an excellent post

 

[mike70]

please let me know the result, in my point of view by blocking the port and adding a sub the sound will become much better, you aren't going to deal with the port in your room, that can change a lot of things.

Well, you're right ... Is notably better with the full port plugs. More "thump" in the low bass and more clear at midbass.

With 60hz at low pass now bass is too light, I settled on 70 Hz and it's perfect. I don't like it higher.

The right low pass frequency and slope is more a result of the particular room, but I think you're correct about the port plugs.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Well, you're right ... Is notably better with the full port plugs. More "thump" in the low bass and more clear at midbass.

With 60hz at low pass now bass is too light, I settled on 70 Hz and it's perfect. I don't like it higher.

The right low pass frequency and slope is more a result of the particular room, but I think you're correct about the port plugs.

Nice!!!
In paper should works, nice to see in reality too, because i wanna put some subwoofers and then block the ports.
Do you notice more ease to listen the information between 10khz - 20khz or more clean mids ?

 

[mike70]

Nice!!!
In paper should works, nice to see in reality too, because i wanna put some subwoofers and then block the ports.
Do you notice more ease to listen the information between 10khz - 20khz or more clean mids ?

Cleaner mids, bass with more "kick in the chest" ... voices with more "body".
The R3 responds quickly to any setting, really transparent speakers.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Cleaner mids, bass with more "kick in the chest" ... voices with more "body".
The R3 responds quickly to any setting, really transparent speakers.

Very nice, dealing with ports in a normal room it's very hard to get right.
Nice to see the R3 works very well in that way, it's an amazing speaker! : )

 

[Daka]

Subs arrived - at first thought I got a dud as I couldn't tell whether they were playing or not - going -30 to 0 was not presenting any change but 30 min later after removing RCA splitter and reconnecting them on Arcam to different channel finally started to hear their presence. The fact you can't feel air pushed nor any vibrations like absolutely none didn't help in this matter either.
Left them set at -10db - 6/7 db higher than sb1000 Pros. Watched Dune and I can say:
- no rattling from sub or in the room which is nice (contrary to sb1000 pro), no sweat performance
- loudness level and performance I would compare to going to cinema, powerful enough to match the effects in the movie adding to total immersion but never chest pounding overbearing (again contrary to sb1000 pro)
-look and size is great - you can barely notice something is there size of a speaker - they match R3s
Perfect for living room IMHO - and people who don't like chest pounding experience or rattling in the room (as much fun the latter can be it affects immersion negatively). I would say for the effortless power they provide they are worth extra 20% difference. With two is more questionable as you can get a really good single sub for price of two (I managed to get 2 for £1600) but i'm addicted to dual sub configs - where I can place them wherever I please visually without crawling and checking if its good place for sub. I was considering KC62 but not sure whether SPL level would be enough for movie watching since its lower than these. All in all happy with them - perfect compromise.

 

[Daka]

Frequency is determined by how fast the woofer moves. The signal sent to the woofer tells the woofer what frequency to play, which in turn determines how fast the woofer moves. It moves faster for higher frequencies, and slower for lower frequencies. That's why subjective audiophile gobbledygook reviews/sites that claim sealed subs are "faster" than ported subs are spreading false misconceptions. If the sealed sub moved faster, it would literally be playing the wrong(higher) frequency. The main force controlling movement of the cone is the magnetic force of the motor assembly. Small woofers are not necessarily any tighter, punchier, faster, crispier(insert made up audiophile adjective of choice) than larger subs even up to 18" in diameter. In fact, 18" pro audio drivers with lightweight cones and extremely strong motors are some of the most superbly suited subs in existence for music reproduction. It's true that a light weight 10"woofer can be lighter than an 18" subwoofer, but the ratio of motor strength to cone weight can be higher with the 18, making it even more well suited to music and mid/upper bass reproduction. By the same token, a heavy, high excursion, low efficiency, ultra deep bass 18" driver would certainly be less suited for mid/upper bass than a smaller, lighter 12" high efficiency driver. There is no blanket statement that can be made, other than when it comes to subs, all else being equal, bigger is better, at *EVERYTHING*(other than being smaller). Want the best, highest output, lowest distortion, best sound quality subwoofer? Get the best 18" sub…it will do literally everything better than a smaller sub. Pick your poison as to whether you want a deep bass specialist, which will give up some mid/upper bass capability. Or choose a light weight, high sensitivity low xmax pro driver….you give up a lot of deep bass but gain superb mid/upper bass capability. Want the best of both worlds, choose something like this:
BMS 18N862 18" pro audio woofer. ….perhaps one of the best "all around" subwoofer drivers made.
Another point in favor of the superior sound quality larger drivers are capable of is that small 8, 10, 12, or even 15" woofers have to use alot more excursion to produce the same SPL as an 18"…this results in higher distortion, lower sound quality, heavier cone, etc. An 18" sub barely has to move and has ultra low distortion to produce the same SPL that will have little baby 8" woofers puking their guts out with distortion and high excursion.

There's a reason kick drums aren't tiny…smaller isn't better.

Wow 18000 W RMS - that's something. What sizes they use in IMAX cinemas?
Bigger Xmax=bigger distortion as a general rule but there are smart tech exceptions. Like KC62 for instance. In that case they developed tech to keep distortion in check despite its massive Xmax. I do wonder how distortion compares between sb1000 pro and 3000 micro - latter is deemed to have a better build quality, but is it enough to have better THD? 3000 micro sounds better to my ears than 1000 pro even though Im not an expert and can't explain why specifically this is the case

 

[mike70]

Don't forget that 2 drivers of 8" are bigger than 8" ... I mean, if the 1000 pro have a 10" driver ... that doesn't mean it have a bigger driver than 3000 micro.