Surround speaker options in a small room - case study

[Artsfols]

This is a follow on to an earlier thread I initiated: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rear-speakers-what-do-they-add.63610/

Now that I have decided to add 2 surround speakers (sadly, I incorrectly referred to them as rear speakers in the earlier thread), I have found that there are a number of distinct approaches that could be used to address the upgrade. Perhaps narrowing the approach will focus my search on the specific speaker solution. I found there are 5 distinct options for adding surrounds in my particular case.

First of all, I'll describe the room. It's 11' in length, 10.5' in width, and there are 2 exterior windows, a skylight, and, of course, a door. In terms of layout, the sound equipment is arrayed along the longest wall, and the listening/ viewing seating is along the opposing wall. There is some side seating as well, for friends, kids or grandkids to view movies and the like. Thus off axis sound clarity is a consideration in this upgrade, but a minor one.

The sound equipment is more or less arrayed all in the same plane, with speaker fronts facing directly forward, about 1.5 feet out from the wall. Sub is back a bit, closer to the wall. The speakers included Totem Arro's for L+R, ELAC DCR 52 Ref for center, and, finally, a Totem Tribe sub with its own amp. Main AVR is a Denon X3700. The sound has been equalized using Audyssey.

The application will be listening to multi-channel music. Examples: streaming video and Atmos audio of the Berlin Philharmonic; multi-channel remixes of prog rock albums, like those remixed by Steve Wilson; concerts on DVD and Bluray disc, with multi-channel sound, such as Eric Clapton's Crossroads concerts. We also stream movies and TV shows in this room, but they are not a key consideration for my purposes.

Here are the options that present themselves for adding 2 surround speakers:

Side wall options
1. Downward facing L +R speakers, in the corners near the ceiling, facing at right angles to the front speaker array plane.
Example: SVS Prime Elevation, CDN$1050 per pair, mounted facing downward.

Note: the examples aren't necessarily what I would purchase, but to help illustrate the option. My budget is $2000 CDN for the pair, approximately.

2. Again, small speakers in the corners near the ceiling, facing toward the listener at right angles to the front speaker array plane.
Example: KEF LS50 Meta, CDN$2000 per pair.

Rear wall options
3. Dipole speakers, in a plane parallel to the front speakers, on the real wall, perhaps 2' down from the ceiling, close to corner on one side, 3 feet in on the other due to doorway.
Example: Monitor Audio Bronze FX, CDN $800 per pair.

4. Wall mounted book shelf speakers with good off axis dispersion, same location as the dipoles.
Example: ELAC DEbut 2.0 OWR, CDN $530 per pair.

5. On stands or out from side walls, facing toward the speaker, and likely toed in, perhaps half way between the front and back walls.
Example: KEF LS50 Meta, CDN $2000 per pair.


1. Which is the five approaches do you think is best in this situation?
2. How do you think each example speaker would perform?
3. Are there any other speakers that you would recommend for the surround speaker application?

[Edited for clarity]

 

[BJL]

Nothing wrong with a small room, I had a 5.1.4 atmos set up in a smaller room than yours and it sounded great.

I use floor standing speakers in my current system, they take up no more room than bookshelf speakers on stands and sound better, to my ears.

The Elevation speakers are nice, I use them as heights and front wides, but down firing as you describe is not good. The Dolby specification requires that surrounds be ear level. I would add another pair of Totem Arro for the surrounds since you apparently like them and they will match your front LR perfectly, or if that is too expensive look for a pair of Revel F35 or F36, which still seem to be available sporadically at good prices.

 

[Artsfols]

Nothing wrong with a small room, I had a 5.1.4 atmos set up in a smaller room than yours and it sounded great.

I use floor standing speakers in my current system, they take up no more room than bookshelf speakers on stands and sound better, to my ears.

The Elevation speakers are nice, I use them as heights and front wides, but down firing as you describe is not good. The Dolby specification requires that surrounds be ear level. I would add another pair of Totem Arro for the surrounds since you apparently like them and they will match your front LR perfectly, or if that is too expensive look for a pair of Revel F35 or F36, which still seem to be available sporadically at good prices.

Thanks for the advice. I do like the idea of 4 Totem Arro's, but I have a followup question.
The problem I will have with floor standing speakers is that I can't place them very far from my prime seating position. The couch is right along the back wall and has about a foot of space to one side, and about 4-5 feet of space on the other (total wall length 11 feet). The reason it isn't centred is the doorway.
Would it be possible to put a second set of Arro's in the middle of the room, also facing the listener?
My thinking in going up toward the ceiling was to obtain some space from the listener.
There is also a possibility of moving the couch ahead a foot or two, but that would bring me very close to my television (it's a 65 inch) and the front speakers.

 

[BJL]

Compromise on the position not the speakers, in my opinion. Put a second pair of Totems forward of the listening position toed in in. Dolby suggests a 30 degree range (15 foreard 15 back) is acceptable.

 

[Artsfols]

Compromise on the position not the speakers, in my opinion. Put a second pair of Totems forward of the listening position toed in in. Dolby suggests a 30 degree range (15 foreard 15 back) is acceptable.

And Audyssey will adjust the volume I would take it. I am not sure I follow your entire sentence. I'm picturing my second pair of Totems from my listening positioning. They would be facing me, from the far left and far right in the room, just a bit ahead of the couch, toed in. If that is correct, I am not sure what the 30 degree range (15 forward 15 back means). Are you relating the 15 forward 15 back to a plane perpendicular to the back/ front walls?

 

[BJL]

And Audyssey will adjust the volume I would take it. I am not sure I follow your entire sentence. I'm picturing my second pair of Totems from my listening positioning. They would be facing me, from the far left and far right in the room, just a bit ahead of the couch, toed in. If that is correct, I am not sure what the 30 degree range (15 forward 15 back means). Are you relating the 15 forward 15 back to a plane perpendicular to the back/ front walls?

Sorry I meant that Dolby suggests a range of about plus/minus 15% angle from 90 degrees ie side surround, so what you are describing would meet the Dolby specs.

 

[Avp1]

This is a follow on to an earlier thread I initiated: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rear-speakers-what-do-they-add.63610/

Now that I have decided to add 2 surround speakers (sadly, I incorrectly referred to them as rear speakers in the earlier thread), I have found that there are a number of distinct approaches that could be used to address the upgrade. Perhaps narrowing the approach will focus my search on the specific speaker solution. I found there are 5 distinct options for adding surrounds in my particular case.

First of all, I'll describe the room. It's 11' in length, 10.5' in width, and there are 2 exterior windows, a skylight, and, of course, a door. In terms of layout, the sound equipment is arrayed along the longest wall, and the listening/ viewing seating is along the opposing wall. There is some side seating as well, for friends, kids or grandkids to view movies and the like. Thus off axis sound clarity is a consideration in this upgrade, but a minor one.

The sound equipment is more or less arrayed all in the same plane, with speaker fronts facing directly forward, about 1.5 feet out from the wall. Sub is back a bit, closer to the wall. The speakers included Totem Arro's for L+R, ELAC DCR 52 Ref for center, and, finally, a Totem Tribe sub with its own amp. Main AVR is a Denon X3700. The sound has been equalized using Audyssey.

The application will be listening to multi-channel music. Examples: streaming video and Atmos audio of the Berlin Philharmonic; multi-channel remixes of prog rock albums, like those remixed by Steve Wilson; concerts on DVD and Bluray disc, with multi-channel sound, such as Eric Clapton's Crossroads concerts. We also stream movies and TV shows in this room, but they are not a key consideration for my purposes.

Here are the options that present themselves for adding 2 surround speakers:

Side wall options
1. Downward facing L +R speakers, in the corners near the ceiling, facing at right angles to the front speaker array plane.
Example: SVS Prime Elevation, CDN$1050 per pair, mounted facing downward.

Note: the examples aren't necessarily what I would purchase, but to help illustrate the option. My budget is $2000 CDN for the pair, approximately.

2. Again, small speakers in the corners near the ceiling, facing toward the listener at right angles to the front speaker array plane.
Example: KEF LS50 Meta, CDN$2000 per pair.

Rear wall options
3. Dipole speakers, in a plane parallel to the front speakers, on the real wall, perhaps 2' down from the ceiling, close to corner on one side, 3 feet in on the other due to doorway.
Example: Monitor Audio Bronze FX, CDN $800 per pair.

4. Wall mounted book shelf speakers with good off axis dispersion, same location as the dipoles.
Example: ELAC DEbut 2.0 OWR, CDN $530 per pair.

5. On stands or out from side walls, facing toward the speaker, and likely toed in, perhaps half way between the front and back walls.
Example: KEF LS50 Meta, CDN $2000 per pair.


1. Which is the five approaches do you think is best in this situation?
2. How do you think each example speaker would perform?
3. Are there any other speakers that you would recommend for the surround speaker application?

[Edited for clarity]

For room of this size in-wall and in-ceiling is the only viable option. Other than that, you will barely have space there for standalone 12" subwoofer.

 

[Artsfols]

For room of this size in-wall and in-ceiling is the only viable option. Other than that, you will barely have space there for standalone 12" subwoofer.

Although, I'm highly unlikely to do this, where would you place 2 inwall surrounds?

 

[Westsounds]

This is a follow on to an earlier thread I initiated: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rear-speakers-what-do-they-add.63610/

Now that I have decided to add 2 surround speakers (sadly, I incorrectly referred to them as rear speakers in the earlier thread), I have found that there are a number of distinct approaches that could be used to address the upgrade. Perhaps narrowing the approach will focus my search on the specific speaker solution. I found there are 5 distinct options for adding surrounds in my particular case.

First of all, I'll describe the room. It's 11' in length, 10.5' in width, and there are 2 exterior windows, a skylight, and, of course, a door. In terms of layout, the sound equipment is arrayed along the longest wall, and the listening/ viewing seating is along the opposing wall. There is some side seating as well, for friends, kids or grandkids to view movies and the like. Thus off axis sound clarity is a consideration in this upgrade, but a minor one.

The sound equipment is more or less arrayed all in the same plane, with speaker fronts facing directly forward, about 1.5 feet out from the wall. Sub is back a bit, closer to the wall. The speakers included Totem Arro's for L+R, ELAC DCR 52 Ref for center, and, finally, a Totem Tribe sub with its own amp. Main AVR is a Denon X3700. The sound has been equalized using Audyssey.

The application will be listening to multi-channel music. Examples: streaming video and Atmos audio of the Berlin Philharmonic; multi-channel remixes of prog rock albums, like those remixed by Steve Wilson; concerts on DVD and Bluray disc, with multi-channel sound, such as Eric Clapton's Crossroads concerts. We also stream movies and TV shows in this room, but they are not a key consideration for my purposes.

Here are the options that present themselves for adding 2 surround speakers:

Side wall options
1. Downward facing L +R speakers, in the corners near the ceiling, facing at right angles to the front speaker array plane.
Example: SVS Prime Elevation, CDN$1050 per pair, mounted facing downward.

Note: the examples aren't necessarily what I would purchase, but to help illustrate the option. My budget is $2000 CDN for the pair, approximately.

2. Again, small speakers in the corners near the ceiling, facing toward the listener at right angles to the front speaker array plane.
Example: KEF LS50 Meta, CDN$2000 per pair.

Rear wall options
3. Dipole speakers, in a plane parallel to the front speakers, on the real wall, perhaps 2' down from the ceiling, close to corner on one side, 3 feet in on the other due to doorway.
Example: Monitor Audio Bronze FX, CDN $800 per pair.

4. Wall mounted book shelf speakers with good off axis dispersion, same location as the dipoles.
Example: ELAC DEbut 2.0 OWR, CDN $530 per pair.

5. On stands or out from side walls, facing toward the speaker, and likely toed in, perhaps half way between the front and back walls.
Example: KEF LS50 Meta, CDN $2000 per pair.


1. Which is the five approaches do you think is best in this situation?
2. How do you think each example speaker would perform?
3. Are there any other speakers that you would recommend for the surround speaker application?

[Edited for clarity]

I'd be interested in this, can you summarise it in to a sentence. Please. Thats a lot of text for me to work out. I'm not that interested but would still love to know.

 

[Avp1]

Although, I'm highly unlikely to do this, where would you place 2 inwall surrounds?

I assume you will sit close to the back wall. Then put surrounds inside side walls 2-3 feet from back corners. Also add two ceiling speakers somewhere in the middle (front to back) of the room. This should work for movies as 5.1.2 Atmos setup.

 

[Artsfols]

I'd be interested in this, can you summarise it in to a sentence. Please. Thats a lot of text for me to work out. I'm not that interested but would still love to know.

Here is what I suggest.
Watch videos on this topic using this link: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Surround+speaker+options+in+a+small+room

 

[Artsfols]

I assume you will sit close to the back wall. Then put surrounds inside side walls 2-3 feet from back corners. Also add two ceiling speakers somewhere in the middle (front to back) of the room. This should work for movies as 5.1.2 Atmos setup.

Okay, thanks. Good intel. It does sound interesting. One worry is the difficulty in testing speakers in different positions, and also switching them up for a different brand or upgrading them. Does not mean I won't consider doing this, but it is a risk. If I flush mount a couple of books shelves in the same position on the wall (for the surrounds) then will the sound be all that much different?

 

[Westsounds]

Here is what I suggest.
Watch videos on this topic using this link: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Surround+speaker+options+in+a+small+room

Thank you

 

[vddobrev]

If I flush mount a couple of books shelves in the same position on the wall (for the surrounds) then will the sound be all that much different?

Not a problem, but if they are ported, the port should be front or bottom firing, e.g. Sonus Faber Sonetto I or II. Also, there are dedicated wall mount speakers for surround, such as the Sonus Faber Wall. Check them out to get a sense of the design, they are not that deep as a book shel speaker.

 

[Avp1]

Not a problem, but if they are ported, the port should be front or bottom firing, e.g. Sonus Faber Sonetto I or II. Also, there are dedicated wall mount speakers for surround, such as the Sonus Faber Wall. Check them out to get a sense of the design, they are not that deep as a book shel speaker.

You can find special on-wall speakers, they are thinner than bookshelves. But from acoustical perspective flush mounted or in-wall are better.

 

[Blueprint]

The Kef Q4 Meta is a good space-saving option. According to Kef’s white paper they have very similar tonality to LS50 Meta. Flat with small dip at the crossover region. No need to point them at you as coaxial designs maintain tonality off-axis, in fact it would be probably be beneficial to point them away from you for creating greater sense of ambience. Pretty inexpensive too, £700 a pair here in the UK.

 

[Artsfols]

The Kef Q4 Meta is a good space-saving option. According to Kef’s white paper they have very similar tonality to LS50 Meta. Flat with small dip at the crossover region. No need to point them at you as coaxial designs maintain tonality off-axis, in fact it would be probably be beneficial to point them away from you for creating greater sense of ambience. Pretty inexpensive too, £700 a pair here in the UK.

That's a very interesting option. I appreciate your point that speakers with good off-axis dispersion will function well in this situation.

Here is where I am at with this. I am leery of mounting the speakers high on the wall, and the side walls present a mounting issue with windows and bookcases in the way. I take on board the point that some 5.1 program material, of which I have quite a lot in the form of concert videos, has been engineered for 5 speakers all in the same plane.
Recently, I played some source material on my own system (with Totem Arro's as L+R) and then again on one of my brother's system with ELAC UniFi UBR62 speakers. For clarity in the mid-range the ELAC speakers won hands down. I was very, very impressed. There were some caveats, but not related to the UBR62 speakers. He does not have a sub and I have a very good one, so his system lacked oomph. The Arro's might be a bit better that way as well. And, some of the dense, forte orchestral passages suffered very slightly from distortion on his system, but he is only driving the speakers with a 2x20w amp. Finally, one reason I chose this recording is that there are moments when the strings have screechy overtones on my Arros. Was it the recording? Apparently not, because they went away on the ELACs.

What I plan to do now is move the Totem Arro's to the midpoint in the room to function as surrounds, and purchase the ELAC UBR62 to become front L+R.

I welcome any counterpoint to these plans. I don't pretend to have a final answer here, but the prospect is one of improvement I think.

 

[Torin Krell]

My simple general suggestion for most surround setups is to use as many of the exact same speaker models as possible (given size and other restraints). Different speaker models, even from the same manufacturer and speaker line "family", will usually still have some different dispersion and frequency response variances that will make an optimal setup more challenging to achieve.