Sundara + ELAC DEBUT 2.0 B6.2 set-up expansion

[AGforthewin]

Hello,

Im quite new to the topics of audio, that is beyond buying random earbuds for the gym once the old ones stop working. I've bought Sundaras a while ago - loving it so far. All i've used it with is a simple USB C apple dongle + PC/phone. Phone is pixel 6 and legion 5 pc with Realtek HD Audio soundcard (at least i think it is name of soundcard integreted in MOBA, that's what pops-up in device manager)
I've also ordered aforementioned ELACs and will get them by the end of the week.
I've watched quite a lot of videos/reviews and read articles on the topic of AMPs/DACs - some say that there's virtually no difference in the sound some say you should pay x time more for your DAC/AMP set-up than an actual speakers/headphones.
Now to be somewhere in the middle i've thought about buying some not necessarily high end hardware such as:
- Topping E30
- ifi Zen Blue
- FiiO E10K Olympus 2
- Topping BC3
Which one of these? Any other suggestions? The cheaper the better obviously but just to give you some range to work with - I could spare ~~200$. Please note im in EU, so stuff like Shiit/JDS is hard to come by
Also would i need some additional cables/etc to connect it properly?

Thanks a lot for anyone that made it until the end and thank you double if you can also add some insights ^^

 

[Eetu]

Hi and welcome to ASR,

Would you like to use the Elacs as desktop speakers or in a separate setup? What speaker amp are you planning to use?

If you are using them as desktop speakers I would get a DAC/headphone amp -combo that would improve your listening experience with the Sundaras as well. Have a look at the Topping DX3 Pro+ for example.

Some of the devices you listed are DAC only, some are also bluetooth receivers and/or headphone amps, none of them are speaker amps. Would you like to clarify what you are looking for specifically?

I agree with the view that the biggest audible improvements are in the speakers and headphones, by far. You don't have to spend a lot on DACs or headphone amps.

Btw since you seem to be using an Android phone, I recommend installing Wavelet. It's a free EQ app that allows you to correct your headphones freq response using ready-made presets based on Sundara measurements.

 

[Adaboy4z]

Second the Wavelet app its a winner for Headphones.

 

[AGforthewin]

Hi and welcome to ASR,

Would you like to use the Elacs as desktop speakers or in a separate setup? What speaker amp are you planning to use?

Thanks!
Just for a desktop set-up, in chair or within a small 15m2 room for movies/music listening

If you are using them as desktop speakers I would get a DAC/headphone amp -combo that would improve your listening experience with the Sundaras as well. Have a look at the Topping DX3 Pro+ for example.

This one looks alright - how would i connect between this Topping and headphones/speakers? Would it allow for a decently comfortable switching between these two?

Some of the devices you listed are DAC only, some are also bluetooth receivers and/or headphone amps, none of them are speaker amps. Would you like to clarify what you are looking for specifically?

Frankly speaking i have no idea, after all the reading i feel like i do need some additional hardware, but do i need the AMP? As for the headphones - Pixel 6 paired with Sundaras does barely seem to be getting loud enough - i'm missing the ability to increase the volume by one or two ticks on favourite parts like the finish of "Dogs", some solos etc.
It's not a deal breaker though, maybe even better that im keeping my ears safe ^^
Does it change the actual sound signature within these decibels i cant say, call me deaf but i cant hear much of a difference between sound quality on max volume on the pixel vs sound quality on same volume on PC (which is around 30%)
As for speakers i i dont even know how they will sound, didnt even get them yet.
Will take your word for it - do you think Topping is a good fit for ELAC & Sundaras?

I agree with the view that the biggest audible improvements are in the speakers and headphones, by far. You don't have to spend a lot on DACs or headphone amps.


Btw since you seem to be using an Android phone, I recommend installing Wavelet. It's a free EQ app that allows you to correct your headphones freq response using ready-made presets based on Sundara measurements.

Thanks! Just did it and now i can hear that there's a smaller difference between listening on my phone and PC. Some time ago i've changed EQed Sundaras on my PC with EqualizerAPO - i see that they even mentioned Wavelet on Github page

 

[Eetu]

Nice to hear you found Wavelet useful!

Since the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 are passive speakers you need an amplifier. If you would get a DAC with volume control such as the DX3 Pro+ I mentioned you only need a power amp type of amplifier (as opposed to an integrated). Some inexpensive desktop suitable amps that would work are the Topping PA3s or Aiyima A07 or A04.

My recommendation would actually be to consider returning the Elacs and get active speakers such as the Kali LP-6 2nd Wave instead. They are very good speakers for the price and you wouldn't have to buy a separate amplifier.

As for the switching between speakers and headphones the DX3 Pro+ has a remote that can switch between headphone out and RCA (speakers) out. And you can have them both connected at the same time of course.

 

[AGforthewin]

Ok, so the AMP in DX3 Pro+ works only with headphone output? Buying this Topping + one of the AMPs you suggested is twice the budget i've mentioned. Same for the Kali speakers - where i'm from they cost twice as much (to the dot) then ELACs.

Now my main point is - do these performance increases justify the price? Or are the differences in sound marginal and barely audible for a regular person (not talking about one of those mythical beings called audiophiles) and we are entering a game of comparing numbers on the screen

I'm an engineer and even if i have little to no idea about audio I've been taught a bit about material conductivity and i KNOW that people selling cables with fucking diamond dust inside for 300$ a metre are full of shit.
I went on to search a bit and heard a guy named Joshua Volour that does audio reviews for a living on YT and from what he was saying it was clear that he didnt even know Ohm's law.
So clearly there's a lot of bullshit in the audio sphere and i just dont know to be one of the guys that fall for it

 

[Eetu]

Ok, so the AMP in DX3 Pro+ works only with headphone output? Buying this Topping + one of the AMPs you suggested is twice the budget i've mentioned. Same for the Kali speakers - where i'm from they cost twice as much (to the dot) then ELACs.

Now my main point is - do these performance increases justify the price? Or are the differences in sound marginal and barely audible for a regular person (not talking about one of those mythical beings called audiophiles) and we are entering a game of comparing numbers on the screen

I'm an engineer and even if i have little to no idea about audio I've been taught a bit about material conductivity and i KNOW that people selling cables with fucking diamond dust inside for 300$ a metre are full of shit.
I went on to search a bit and heard a guy named Joshua Volour that does audio reviews for a living on YT and from what he was saying it was clear that he didnt even know Ohm's law.
So clearly there's a lot of bullshit in the audio sphere and i just dont know to be one of the guys that fall for it

No, I agree 100%. And I imagine the majority of ASR members as well.

But then again, in the world of audio 100-200€ is quite little and close to the minimum one has to spend to get some usability/functionality or something that's not super noisy for example. There isn't a lot of good options for speaker amplifiers below the price of the Aiyimas I mentioned.

Yes, headphone amps and speaker amplifiers are two different things. The reason I recommended a DAC/headphone amp at all was mainly for usability. You could connect both the headphones and the speakers (/speaker amp) to it and use a single USB output from your PC and control the volume using that single device. I wouldn't expect the sound quality to improve much if at all. Technically you get lower noise floor, lower distortion and more power for hard-to-drive headphones but if you've been happy with the iPhone dongle no need to upgrade from a SQ perspective.

The differences between good and poor headphones and speakers are of course very audible though. But the Elacs are a good choice and you could also EQ them a bit based on Amir's measurements.

 

[AGforthewin]

Ok then so basically if im doing just fine without a physical volume switch and dont mind having 2 USB outputs taken by both speakers and headphones then all i need to get is a speaker AMP? Speaking purely in terms of sound quality. Then EQ the ELACs and im good to go?

 

[Eetu]

Ok then so basically if im doing just fine without a physical volume switch and dont mind having 2 USB outputs taken by both speakers and headphones then all i need to get is a speaker AMP? Speaking purely in terms of sound quality. Then EQ the ELACs and im good to go?

But then you would be using the analog output from your PC since the only DACs you have are the Apple dongle or the PCs internal RealTek soundcard? The Aiyima amp has only analog inputs.

Some of the RealTek soundcards are super noisy, some go into clipping already at way before 1V output voltage. If that's the case you might be better off getting a 3.5mm to RCA cable and using the Apple dongle and just switch cables when using headphones.

Perhaps the best option then would be to get an amplifier that has a built-in DAC (USB input) such as the Loxjie A30. It also has a built-in headphone amp but apparently it has very low output, I haven't looked up how it compares to the Apple dongles output. But an affordable all-in device for sure. Edit: both seem to output ~30mW to 33 Ohm and ~4mW to 300 Ohm

 

[AGforthewin]

Alright, i did some digging on my own on this site as well. Which one of these should i get in that price range? What are the ups and downsides? Amazon link amp is on promo on amazon.de so it costs only 40$ more than Loxije as opposed to Topping that i can get 40$ cheaper

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But then you would be using the analog output from your PC since the only DACs you have are the Apple dongle or the PCs internal RealTek soundcard? The Aiyima amp has only analog inputs.

Right, only DACs is Realtek HD soundcard and apple dongle. I do have google pixel dongles as well and some random stuff but according to this site's reviews apple dongle is the only usable one. Only analog input i have is 3,5 mm jack, rest is digital - USB A, C and HDMI

Some of the RealTek soundcards are super noisy, some go into clipping already at way before 1V output voltage. If that's the case you might be better off getting a 3.5mm to RCA cable and using the Apple dongle and just switch cables when using headphones.

So i'd connect the 3,5 mm jack output with 3,5 to RCA cable to the AMP and then from AMP 2 RCA cables to speakers? And headphones stay as they are so 3,5 jack to apple dongle to USB C input right?

 

[Eetu]

So i'd connect the 3,5 mm jack output with 3,5 to RCA cable to the AMP and then from AMP 2 RCA cables to speakers? And headphones stay as they are so 3,5 jack to apple dongle to USB C input right?

Yes, but since you would have to switch cables all the time I think I would get one of the amps that has digital inputs (built-in DAC) instead. So that leaves the Topping unit out as it's analog input only.

I didn't have the time to have an in-depth look at the Amazon amp but seems it has a lot more power than the Loxjie. Since it's for desktop use I think the Loxjie should be fine though. The Amazon amp also doesn't have USB input, only coax & optical, not sure if your PC has those outputs?

Another plus for the Loxjie besides the USB input, is the headphone amp, which again might give you enough juice if you have been ok with the Apple dongle. That would be a one-box solution then. All you would need to buy separately is some speaker cable.

 

[Steven Holt]

topping dx3 pro>topping PA3s>q acoustics 3010i (the 6.2's are generally too large for dt use) You could also use the Micca RB42's to save money. Everybody on this forum hates them, and they don't measure well, but they are one hell of a lot of fun.