Suggestions for thin on-wall speakers?

[Smitty2k1]

Building out a new watching and listening area on a 3rd floor pop-up of our row home in Washington, DC.

My challenge is that the speakers and TV are at the top of the stairs and anything deeper than 5" or 6" will begin to block the entryway.

Originally I wanted to go with in-wall speakers, but further research leads me to believe they will put excess noise and vibrations into the wall. This is our shared wall with our neighbor. It's a brick wall, and on our side we have a standard 2x4 stud wall with insulation. The neighbor does not have a 3rd floor pop-up like we do, so they do not directly live in the other side of this wall at this level, but I'm concerned with noise and vibrations non-the-less.

I've looked at various on-wall speakers in the $400-$500 price range. I plan on starting with a 2.0 system, adding a center channel at a later date, and adding a subwoofer sometime after that. Here is my short list:

- Elac Muro on-wall, probably the large size for a center and the small size for LR.

- Dali Oberon on-wall, not sure what I would match this with for a center, as it is only sold in pairs. The more expensive Dali Opticon is sold as an individual and suitable for center channel use, assuming it would sound fine matched with Oberons.

- XTZ Spirit 2. These are well reviewed but not nearly as nice looking and seem to be sold out at the moment. Could possibly do the larger Spirit 6 as the center channel.

- Passive 3 channel "sound bar". There are a variety of these available on the market including an upcoming Monolith (monoprice) model that looks pretty nice. I only have a 55" TV and so I'm concerned the smaller soundbars may not give me enough channel separation.

Any other options to consider or person experience/reviews of any of these models? Information online for these types of speakers is scarce.

Photo of the wall attached. Still figuring out furniture too.

 

[hardisj]

On-wall speakers need to be rigidly mounted. Otherwise they will impart resonance on the drywall.

In-wall speakers can potentially be more rigidly mounted - especially if you take the time to improve the "baffle" by adding a layer of MDF or HDPE to add density to the drywall layer - and you can also add some damping to help the backwave.

On-wall speakers are rarely ever designed for true on-wall. There are significant dips in the response wrt the depth of the speaker. I don't think any manufacturer is truly accounting for this and it's not something that can be corrected via DSP because it is relative to the angle (the primary dip is more severe on-axis; less severe off-axis). I've got the data to back this up. The sound power won't be terrible but I'd bet on the odds of you finding a better in-wall than on-wall.

Just food for thought.

 

[Smitty2k1]

On-wall speakers need to be rigidly mounted. Otherwise they will impart resonance on the drywall.

In-wall speakers can potentially be more rigidly mounted - especially if you take the time to improve the "baffle" by adding a layer of MDF or HDPE to add density to the drywall layer - and you can also add some damping to help the backwave.

On-wall speakers are rarely ever designed for true on-wall. There are significant dips in the response wrt the depth of the speaker. I don't think any manufacturer is truly accounting for this and it's not something that can be corrected via DSP because it is relative to the angle (the primary dip is more severe on-axis; less severe off-axis). I've got the data to back this up. The sound power won't be terrible but I'd bet on the odds of you finding a better in-wall than on-wall.

Just food for thought.

Yeah my research leads me to believe that in-wall is generally better, and I have no issues cutting holes in my wall, but I don't think I can significantly alter the structure of what's back there right now. Hence my concern with the shared wall. The fact it is brick may hurt or help, no clue.

 

[hardisj]

Yeah my research leads me to believe that in-wall is generally better, and I have no issues cutting holes in my wall, but I don't think I can significantly alter the structure of what's back there right now. Hence my concern with the shared wall. The fact it is brick may hurt or help, no clue.

I'm assuming you'll have standard stud spacing and depth. I doubt the drywall is attached directly to the brick. If you out outlet receptacles in that wall then you definitely have some sort of framing structure. Might be worth checking into.

I'll leave you be and not continue to push for the in-wall solution now.

 

[Smitty2k1]

I'm assuming you'll have standard stud spacing and depth. I doubt the drywall is attached directly to the brick. If you out outlet receptacles in that wall then you definitely have some sort of framing structure. Might be worth checking into.

I'll leave you be and not continue to push for the in-wall solution now.

Oh yeah - definitely more or less standard 2x4 construction on top of the brick. The existing low voltage cable boxes give me a peek inside the studs where the TV are mounted are on 12" centers and there's also a horizontal support. Not sure if the builder put that in for the TV or to support something else.

I thought what you were talking about would involve ripping off the drywall over the 2x4 yeah? Not sure my partner would be quite up for that...

 

[hardisj]

I thought what you were talking about would involve ripping off the drywall over the 2x4 yeah? Not sure my partner would be quite up for that...

Oh, no. I was just thinking if you could come up with some way to double layer the mounting point. You could slip some pieces of 2x4s behind the drywall, and screw them in through the drywall to make a more sturdy 'frame' to mount the in-wall speaker and the outer trim of the speaker should cover the screws, too. Of course, that's one suggestion; I'm sure there are more elegant solutions.

Again, I'm not trying to 'push' in-wall solution. I'm not saying all on-wall solutions are reasonable solutions. But if you said "here are my two options, which would likely sound better", I'd go with the in-wall solution based on what I've seen to date. Unless the on-wall speaker is very thin and the amplitude / width of the dip is very low.

 

[Holmz]

I picked up both a used pair, and a gifted pair, of Vandersteen VSMs.$1600/pr new and 5” deep.
One could probably change the colour of the socks if needed to better match the room.

I did not consider sending it to Erin or Amir, until it was too late.
In theory we could consider doing that if either wanted to test them, but it would take time.
(I would just go and listen somewhere - if possible.)

On center channels, 99% of people say that the center channel is the most important channel.
I am not sure I agree and have seen a few studies on the topic.
2.0 TV watching is very convincing with the phantom channel… so much so that the Mrs said to move the speakers out because the TV sounded fine... When I reached over and adjusted teh pre-amp, she asked how it was controlling the TV.
I had to actually turn the TV sound up before she believed that the TV was not making the sound.

Couple that with the mediocre performance of a lot of center channels, and I am 90% convinced that for a narrow spread, like 2 people, one does not need a center channel...
... and if one has more seats and needs a center channel, then they need a good one.

YMMV

 

[Smitty2k1]

I picked up both a used pair, and a gifted pair, of Vandersteen VSMs.$1600/pr new and 5” deep.
One could probably change the colour of the socks if needed to better match the room.

I did not consider sending it to Erin or Amir, until it was too late.
In theory we could consider doing that if either wanted to test them, but it would take time.
(I would just go and listen somewhere - if possible.)

On center channels, 99% of people say that the center channel is the most important channel.
I am not sure I agree and have seen a few studies on the topic.
2.0 TV watching is very convincing with the phantom channel… so much so that the Mrs said to move the speakers out because the TV sounded fine... When I reached over and adjusted teh pre-amp, she asked how it was controlling the TV.
I had to actually turn the TV sound up before she believed that the TV was not making the sound.

Couple that with the mediocre performance of a lot of center channels, and I am 90% convinced that for a narrow spread, like 2 people, one does not need a center channel...
... and if one has more seats and needs a center channel, then they need a good one.

YMMV

Wow those things are huge (and out of my budget). Definitely agree with the center channel and why I plan on starting with 2.0. If I feel I'm missing a center I can always add it.

 

[Holmz]

Wow those things are huge

I have seldom heard 5” deep being described as huge…
(But it is still nice to hear when they say it.)


On a serious note, I would get a couple of cases of beer, and paint the cartons black, and tape em to the wall for a week.
If you cannot stand it, then it doesn’t matter what they cost of sound like

(and out of my budget).

I got 4 (2 pair) for ~$500 with the shipping.

Definitely agree with the center channel and why I plan on starting with 2.0. If I feel I'm missing a center I can always add it.

Hopefully you are as surprised as I was.
(Which should not be too surprising)

 

[Smitty2k1]

I have seldom heard 5” deep being described as huge…
(But it is still nice to hear when they say it.)


On a serious note, I would get a couple of cases of beer, and paint the cartons black, and tape em to the wall for a week.
If you cannot stand it, then it doesn’t matter what they cost of sound like


I got 4 (2 pair) for ~$500 with the shipping.




Hopefully you are as surprised as I was.
(Which should not be too surprising)

I was thinking the height/width not the depth of the cabinet. You said in your first post they coat $1600/pair. Thanks for tips!

 

[Yasuo]

What if you use (smaller) bookshelf speakers suspended from the ceiling? (obviously with at the proper angle) Think that will look nice and avoid some resonance.

 

[Joecarrow]

This is something I've been working on for a DIY design; a shallow on-wall speaker that I'm pushing to be five or even four inches deep. I'm still working on the data (will be very interested to see what @hardisj shares too), but my hope is that with a wide baffle and large woofer and waveguide tweeter I might be able to thread the needle and avoid the worst of it.

 

[BenB]

This is something I've been working on for a DIY design; a shallow on-wall speaker that I'm pushing to be five or even four inches deep. I'm still working on the data (will be very interested to see what @hardisj shares too), but my hope is that with a wide baffle and large woofer and waveguide tweeter I might be able to thread the needle and avoid the worst of it.

If the speaker is flat against the wall, and the baffle doesn't tilt in, then the listening axis will likely be about 27 degrees away from normal. Someone sitting next to the listening position could easilly be 40 degrees away from normal. If you want consistent sound, you'll need a tweeter that has basically the same response at 40 degrees as it does on-axis.

 

[Joecarrow]

If the speaker is flat against the wall, and the baffle doesn't tilt in, then the listening axis will likely be about 27 degrees away from normal. Someone sitting next to the listening position could easilly be 40 degrees away from normal. If you want consistent sound, you'll need a tweeter that has basically the same response at 40 degrees as it does on-axis.

This is true, but I think the issue is the same as for an in-wall speaker. The waveguide that I’m using in my prototype has fairly constant directivity and so it sounds good off axis, but I think I get your point that if I prioritize narrower dispersion too much then it could end up working against me.

 

[lematadeur]

I just sold my Dali Callisto 2c and sound hub incl. the bluos and hdmi module to a friend, who immediately upgraded to
DALI OBERON ON-WALL C, Vocal C, and a Dali WSR to the sub ( REL Acoustic HT1510 Predator II )

He switched from a pair of monitor audio 300 gold 5g Stereo setup and is really pleased.

 

[Head_Unit]

Originally I wanted to go with in-wall speakers, but further research leads me to believe they will put excess noise and vibrations into the wall. This is our shared wall with our neighbor.

Yeah don't do that. I had a house with those, my roommate's bedroom behind. Sound leaked like nuts, I couldn't listen if he was sleeping.
- First of all KUDOS for posting a picture unprompted!
- What TV is that? Can you control analog output from the volume control? If so, powered monitors! If not does it have Bluetooth (and if so maybe get a good Bluetooth speaker like the JBL Control X wireless, out of production but still pop up sometimes. I got 3 sets.
- You are playing any discs? Or just using sound out of the TV?
- I'd suggest you have space for towers however a friend's search for slim towers was pretty fruitless.
- I would move the TV left (centered between the open door edge and part-wall at the left) and up. Then I'd put a decorative shelf all along below, and 3 small 5" two-way for LCR. And I'd make my wife pick the finishes for that so she's happy.
- Speaking of which, every speaker is different, but happily there are many good ones. Also happily, your ear/brain tend to accommodate to whatever you have over time. So I would put a priority on getting something your spouse likes the look of.
- Your budget is a bit unclear for me-you said $400-500, but Dali Oberon seem $449/pair, but then you might get Opticon for center?
- I'd agree with @Holmz if your speakers are not far apart the center doesn't add much, money is better spent improving the L/R. In your case, if I had a speaker in the far left corner (aimed in almost 45 degrees to reduce highest frequency reflection) and another to the far right almost hitting the door, then I'd want a center. If your L/R are right next to the TV, don't bother with the center.
- If you're keen on woodworking you could make shallow towers kick @ss.

 

[Smitty2k1]

Yeah don't do that. I had a house with those, my roommate's bedroom behind. Sound leaked like nuts, I couldn't listen if he was sleeping.
- First of all KUDOS for posting a picture unprompted!
- What TV is that? Can you control analog output from the volume control? If so, powered monitors! If not does it have Bluetooth (and if so maybe get a good Bluetooth speaker like the JBL Control X wireless, out of production but still pop up sometimes. I got 3 sets.
- You are playing any discs? Or just using sound out of the TV?
- I'd suggest you have space for towers however a friend's search for slim towers was pretty fruitless.
- I would move the TV left (centered between the open door edge and part-wall at the left) and up. Then I'd put a decorative shelf all along below, and 3 small 5" two-way for LCR. And I'd make my wife pick the finishes for that so she's happy.
- Speaking of which, every speaker is different, but happily there are many good ones. Also happily, your ear/brain tend to accommodate to whatever you have over time. So I would put a priority on getting something your spouse likes the look of.
- Your budget is a bit unclear for me-you said $400-500, but Dali Oberon seem $449/pair, but then you might get Opticon for center?
- I'd agree with @Holmz if your speakers are not far apart the center doesn't add much, money is better spent improving the L/R. In your case, if I had a speaker in the far left corner (aimed in almost 45 degrees to reduce highest frequency reflection) and another to the far right almost hitting the door, then I'd want a center. If your L/R are right next to the TV, don't bother with the center.
- If you're keen on woodworking you could make shallow towers kick @ss.

Hey thanks for the reply. Many months ago I got some passive bookshelves that I believed were designed by Dennis Murphy before his Phharmonic audio days (they are local and had been sitting in their basement for a number of years). I ended up spacing them very wide and out of the alcove, which works well since my seating position is also pretty far back. Just wish I'd gotten a larger TV... Much larger.

Picture attached is old but I've also got a small console that holds records. Adding a center channel soon too. Not pictured is a small subwoofer. Neighbor hasn't complained yet but we have a very thick 110 year old brick firewall between our houses. Still need to run REW.

 

[-Matt-]

Obviously too late for the OP but I'm a bit surprised that these didn't get a mention...

Ikea Symfonisk Picture Frame Speaker Review

They reviewed surprisingly well and may be of interest to others who find this thread through search.

(Although I bet the bookshelf speakers outside of the alcove will sound beter in this case).

Edit: Also a bit unclear on how/if these can be connected to the TV (as they are intended for streaming).